Lets get this industry back on track

[idyikiter]

Over at GetPaidForum SelfSupportive brought up what I think is a very good idea. If we were to add "unsustainable ad prices" to the list of things you could be boycotted for, perhaps we could get more members and advertisers to support the sites that are thinking thru their ad prices and link values

Here the thread at GetPaidForum:

http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109554

[SelfSupportive]

I guess 1 problem might be deciding what is sustainable and what isn't. There are several factors, including some that only the program owners involved know, such as their clickthrough rate, and their income from other sources. :yinyang:

[TheBlueEyz]

In a sense, one useful definition of "unsustainable ad prices" could be, "prices so far below a competitive price that they drive other companies out of business."

This can be measured by the percentage of business they get relative to the percentage of business that established, sustainable sites get. If the number is more than two or three Standard Deviations away from a mean value (say, the average number of ads per month or per quarter) than it would be a good measure of the fact that their prices are destructively competitive.

It's one thing if a company can charge such prices and still make a profit. That's just good competition, and is perfectly legal.

However, in most countries, it is NOT legal to compete by driving other companies out of business by putting yourself into vast amounts of debt.

It's perfectly justifiable to boycott sites that do that, because they threaten the industry as a whole. And we can see that, very clearly, over the past few months.

I think, at the very least, this is an idea worth exploring. These sites will kill the PTR business.

[StashuJ]

Hmmmm,

I'm no economics major or anything like that but all this makes perfect sense to me. And I don't profess to know anything about the machinations of running a PTR site and I don't make my living from them but I do subscribe to many of them to collect points and funds for advertising.

In all honesty, I've derived more sales from ads in PTC's than from any other source this year other than standing in the face of the public to sell directly. My on line sources include safelists, banner ads, newsgroups and other sources of paid advertising, excluding pop-ups which I despise. I'm sure we all agree that we like cheap advertising but if by obtaining it we cut our own throats in the long run then I guess the short term gain isn't worth the trouble.

What can the subscribers do to identify these sites so that we don't unwittingly step into some sort of trap that kills us all while we seek out inexpensive advertising for our goods and services?

I purchase ads constantly through e-Bay ads from sites I recognize and believe to be competent whether I belong to them or not. My ad budget is small because I am a small business. So I'm serious here:

am I harming the industry or aiding it?

Thanks :)

[TheBlueEyz]

I would say, "neither." eBay ads are generally, by their very nature, "specials" anyway, and not something I would count towards the actual ad practices of a site (unless they sold say, more than 50% of their ads through eBay).

As for what members can do to recognize sites that undersell.. I don't know :(

Education? It would be a good idea for sites to have links to the GPTBoycott site so members could read what sites are boycotted, what sites are approved, and what sites to stay away from..

I should add one thing to my post above..

An additional measure could be a "Consumer Price Index" type thing, similar to the one used to measure inflation. Go around to sustainable, established sites and take a 'grab bag' of ads at various values of clicks and how many clicks and create an average price.. then go to the 'site in question' and do the same, and if the price is more than two standard deviations away, you can consider them to be underselling ads.

Another is simply to take the raw percentage of debt every ad costs them. If an ad's true cost can be conservatively calculated and STILL be more than 3 times the selling price of the ad, it's a good chance that program is piling up mountains of debt and driving others out of business.

[StashuJ]

Holy Cow, BluEyz! You are way over my head with that advice. I'm afraid I don't have the slightest idea what you mean.

I know what I pay for ads. I know what I'm willing to pay for ads. I know what I can AFFORD to pay for ads. What I don't know is if I'm paying for ads that are harming the industry.

The reason the e-Bay sales for ads for say 1000 hits for a couple bucks attract me is because I don't want to join anymore sites because the time I have to spend surfing to collect ad money and points is limited. It is easier for me to buy a few here and there.

However, I've come to know some pretty darn good webmasters over the years who make their living with the PTR's and I'd hate to think I was putting them out of business because their track records prove them to be straight shooters.

[TheBlueEyz]

Originally posted by StashuJ
Holy Cow, BluEyz! You are way over my head with that advice. I'm afraid I don't have the slightest idea what you mean.

I know what I pay for ads. I know what I'm willing to pay for ads. I know what I can AFFORD to pay for ads. What I don't know is if I'm paying for ads that are harming the industry.

The reason the e-Bay sales for ads for say 1000 hits for a couple bucks attract me is because I don't want to join anymore sites because the time I have to spend surfing to collect ad money and points is limited. It is easier for me to buy a few here and there.

However, I've come to know some pretty darn good webmasters over the years who make their living with the PTR's and I'd hate to think I was putting them out of business because their track records prove them to be straight shooters.

Lol.. doh...

Ok, so it's very easy for a BUYER to know what's happening when they buy an ad...

So you said you buy say 1000 hits for a coupla bucks. Here's what you do..

Take the value that each person will be paid for the ad. Say, you buy an ad where the members get 1c per click. That means the ad to 1000 should cost $10, not including referral earnings. Let's say they have 35% referral earnings. So you should pay $13.50 to cover the cost of the ad.

But, let's say they only have 1500 members. With that few members, you can pretty much guarantee a roughly 50% click through rate. So you should pay $6.75 for that ad to 1000.
(*** See note at the bottom ***)

Now, I would say that an ad can be underpriced by as much as 25% AT THE MOST and still not cause severe debt to the program (because that 25% can be made up in other ways). So the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM you should pay for that ad should be $5.06.

Any less than that and it's a good bet that every ad sold is plunging the program deeper into debt.

Now, it's sort of not really that simple. Because some program will underprice the higher value ads, and over price the lower value ones (i.e., 2c to 5000 will be underpriced by 35% but the 0.5c to 1000 will be overpriced by 50%, and since the lower value ads are purchased more often, they make up the difference).

So it really takes some time with a calculator to figure out what's going on.

That said...

What I meant with the average and standard deviation stuff is basically this...

Say that out of 10 established programs, the average price for a 1cent ad to 2000 is exactly $20 (that's in the neighborhood of a good price, if the program has realistic referral levels).

Let's say the true cost of sending out these ads is around an average value of $15.

Now say in CheapoProgramX, that same ad to 2000 is $5. The true cost of sending the ad is $15, but they're selling it for $5 (the non-special price). That means the true cost is 3 times more than the selling price - a good indicator that the ad is being undersold.

I won't go into the Standard Deviation stuff because it is significantly more complicated, but I think you see what I'm getting at.



**** Note about the above
I have noticed that a program can get a 100% click through rate on ads sent to 50% or less of their membership. That is, if a site has 2000 members, then ads to 1000 or fewer, will get a 100% click through rate, and ads to more than 1000 will only get about a 50% click through rate. The 50% is really achieved around 1500; an ad to say, 1200 would get a click through rate of around 70%.

[StashuJ]

Thanks for taking the time to explain, BluEyz

I think I understand what you are saying. Common sense tells me that if someone pays out more to run an ad than he collects to run it, something is wrong. I've made a boo boo or two myself along those lines and I know that we can ill afford more than a couple before the whole ball of wax begins to melt.

Care to comment on the scenarios where a webmaster voluntarily re-runs an ad because it didn't get enough hits?

I can see where the ad prices can even out for the site owners at auction prices. People get carried away with the bidding and the prices get way out of hand sometimes. I suppose that makes up for the people like me who decide a maximum price, bid it and then back off. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't. But I can't say I've ever let myself be taken to the cleaners for the ads.

And, to be honest, all of the sites I advertise with on a regular basis have been in business for at least one year or are run by webmasters who have a proven track record for staying in business with other sites.

I don't quite understand why the same webmasters keep opening up multiple sites to compete with themselves but there must be a reason for that, too.

[dcwike]

Thank you elixer2 for your explainations.

I've been using the calculator to determine if a program is worth joining (using the cost of ads against the # of members) to see if a program can sustain itself.

But, since I'm not as enlightened as you on the subject, I would contact the PO or WM with questions.

I got a lot of answers quoting "percentage" of click-throughs; and some counting on 60% of members quitting before they reach payout.

But, what of these programs that send a lot of mail with higher 'per click' values to its members?

Won't members click more links and have a tendency to stay with the program until they reach payout?

What effect will that have on a program's ability to pay?

[Rob]

The only problem with including this as grounds for boycott would be that often sites subsidise lower ad prices on e-mails by selling banner impressions, front page links, etc., which cost very little.

Also, who determines what is, and what isn't a sustainable ad price? We don't want to drive out competition from the industry, or it'll never prosper.

Rob

[StashuJ]

Good point, Rob.

[SelfSupportive]

My only suggestion for this problem is a level could be set which is very conservative and that would seem hard to rationalise for any owner. I've said for a long time that prices don't have to equal costs, but they can't be just a tiny fraction of costs, and still remain viable in the long term. Say, 40% for example. Can any program owner really claim that they can sell their ads for 40% of costs or less, and still remain afloat. If they can, great. Let them say so. And as for who picks/sets the level, well I guess that is somethign that needs to be done as collectively as possible - i.e. by the forum population.

Originally posted by Rob
The only problem with including this as grounds for boycott would be that often sites subsidise lower ad prices on e-mails by selling banner impressions, front page links, etc., which cost very little.

Also, who determines what is, and what isn't a sustainable ad price? We don't want to drive out competition from the industry, or it'll never prosper.

Rob

[dcwike]

While I think this is a good subject to educate newbies to the gptr business, I don't think ad prices and pay per clicks should be 'regulated,' per say - OR be grounds for boycott.

Couldn't they, perhaps, be listed in good/bad programs, instead?

Two of the webmasters I spoke to on the subject were grateful I brought the matter to their attention and changed the prices.

I think a lot of the newer sites are well designed, and have new ideas, but, have no well-thought-out business plan.

Years ago I got a job selling ads for a local magazine. After being with the owner a few weeks and finding she always wound up in the red, I freely did a cost analysis and showed her where she was going wrong. (She was under-selling ad space).

With just a few changes in prices (per size of ad), she started making a small net profit. I then helped her with a business plan to submit for a small business grant (offered at that time to single, heads of households).

The woman above could sell cow manure to a cattle farmer, had a good idea, but, no business sense. Now, her magazine is being distributed to over 5 states.

If this program really wants to see this business thrive, I think some of you more experienced webmasters should have a forum to help these people.

[SelfSupportive]

There is such a forum: http://Getpaidforum.com (http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.php)

And sorry, but in my opinion, if someone has absolutely no 'business sense', I have to wonder why they are in business

:\

I'm also not clear on what is the difference between boycotting and good/bad program listing. Shouldn't bad programs be boycotted? Isn't that the point of this site? :\

[dcwike]

Thank you kindly for your reply. Guess I'm a slow learner with these forums.

Thanks for the link.

Not all bad programs should be boycotted.

Programs that do not pay, have never paid or delete members for no reason should be boycotted.

There are programs that are slow pay or have temporary set-backs that may be listed as bad, but not boycotted.

[JaysPaidMail]

Originally posted by Rob
The only problem with including this as grounds for boycott would be that often sites subsidise lower ad prices on e-mails by selling banner impressions, front page links, etc., which cost very little.

Also, who determines what is, and what isn't a sustainable ad price? We don't want to drive out competition from the industry, or it'll never prosper.

Rob

Exactly ~ While for the whole month of December I'm selling ads for $9.00 as member appreciation on JPM

and sending them between 2 & 5 cents each.

Heck yeah that's a mega loss but the peeps like it they buy them like water on a Hot Summer day and I'll just have to cover it with search traffic and Affiliate links which I don't seem to be having any trouble doing it's just A bummer that it takes several months to start getting those big checks again ~ and will be a couple months before I get the bank ,back that Jays has built up .

But it's a small price to pay and well worth it to get the place back where it was .

When I could run a Jays Solo Special at $20.00 a piece and have NO problem selling 40 to 70 in one day .

[taxlady]

Well according to what i read here Mec-co-op should be the first to be boycotted for selling ads below cost.

Facts:

I sell below cost, and give them bonus ads 1/10th cent to keep the 1cent ads flowing.
My advertisers are happy, so are my members as i'm close to sending 50 cents a day now.
Just picked up 4 more advertisers this week.

Fact 2:
I supplement my loss by banner sales, paid2click sales, gold member sales, my affiliate revenues, none of this is anybody's business. It's my site, and i can run it as i see necessary to keep it alive.

I sure would hate to see a bunch of people decide how we webmasters should conduct our business and what prices we should charge..


Good Grief, now i've heard everything.



Originally posted by Rob
The only problem with including this as grounds for boycott would be that often sites subsidise lower ad prices on e-mails by selling banner impressions, front page links, etc., which cost very little.

Also, who determines what is, and what isn't a sustainable ad price? We don't want to drive out competition from the industry, or it'll never prosper.

Rob

[TheBlueEyz]

Hmmmm..

Nobody said anything about boycotting a site because it sells ads below cost.

The suggestion is about sites that sell ads at numbers like 2% of cost, which Carole does not do.

There's a difference between selling an ad below cost, and selling an ad at such a low cost that you could never hope to make it back in other sales.

There's also nothing wrong with running specials or sales. None of these things are what I have been talking about.

I'm talking about one thing, and one thing only, and that is the NORMAL OPERATING advertisement cost charged to the advertiser being at ludicrously low percents of the actual ad cost.

[JaysPaidMail]

Originally posted by TheBlueEyz
Hmmmm..

Nobody said anything about boycotting a site because it sells ads below cost.

The suggestion is about sites that sell ads at numbers like 2% of cost, which Carole does not do.

There's a difference between selling an ad below cost, and selling an ad at such a low cost that you could never hope to make it back in other sales.

There's also nothing wrong with running specials or sales. None of these things are what I have been talking about.

I'm talking about one thing, and one thing only, and that is the NORMAL OPERATING advertisement cost charged to the advertiser being at ludicrously low percents of the actual ad cost.


like the ones I jump in on and build a huge downline cashout 1st and then the site disappears

:music:

yeah those suck they usually are good for a one time cashout thou .

[taxlady]

First of all, i got that impression and i'm sure i saw the word boycott, even in Rob's reply was about boycotting a site.

I could be wrong.

So let's say you're referring to regulating sites as to what they can charge etc..

What gives anyone the right.

In the USA only the Federal Govt has that right. They can set up committee's for that purpose etc.

It's a bit more difficult on the internet as it's international.

Personally it's called competition, and if someone has the money to cut their rates to 20% of cost etc, even to eliminate the competition, so be it.
Doesn't Walmart and Home Depot do that.
A lot of little family business's were put out of business because they can't compete. My Dad was one. He had a small Dry-Goods Store for over 40 years. When the big Dept Stores and the huge Malls started being built, he couldn't compete.

Sorry but that's free enterprise.
I'm not in a position to charge 20% of cost, but if i were, i sure would simply because i plan to be here for years, and could make it back once my competition were eliminated.

It's called BUSINESS

And i run a business, and i'm competing with over 400 other siites.
If i had the money to put $350 out of business, maybe i would.

I don't need to play those games, as i charge fair prices, and i make my payouts in a timely fashion.

But realistically.

I have just about 4000 ACTIVE members.
I know for a fact there are 10 times that many involved in ptr...
Why wouldn't i try to get them if i could compete that way.

Personally, i look at it the opposite.
I don't want an inactive data base, if i did, i'd have about 80,000 members now.
I delete my inactives, and I keep my prices fair to advertisers, and i take care of my members by paying in a timely fashion.

I can't please everyone, but i do what's necessary, and if i ended up with 2000 ACTIVE members, it wouldn't bother me, as my click ratio would still be high because my members know what's expected of them and those that follow the simple rules and READ the mails they are paid to read, don't need to worry about being deleted etc.

Those that cheat, get deleted when caught.

I believe my business practices are upfront and honest, though there's a lot that have been deleted that will disagree, because it's human nature for them to be on the defensive, and deny any wrongdoings etc.

I've learned a long time ago, those that scream the loudest are the guiltiest.

I've only had three deleted members admit they did wrong, and it was honest etc, and i did re-instate those.

Anyway back on topic, i assume this post was either about boycotting or regulating, and i don't believe you or anyone else has that right.

Unfortunately with the scripts being so cheap so many people buy them thinking they're gonna get rich and are attracted to the "I'm a business owner" syndrome.

They don't have any business sense, have no idea what they're doing, and when they find themselves in a position where more money's going out then coming in, they dissapear into the night.

I believe a lot of problems we have with too many sites would be solved if the scripts were 10x the price they are now.

On the other hand, i was not in a position to pay a few thousand for scripts and only tried it because they were so cheap.

So if they were more expensive a lot of good one's wouldn't exist either.



Originally posted by TheBlueEyz
Hmmmm..

Nobody said anything about boycotting a site because it sells ads below cost.

The suggestion is about sites that sell ads at numbers like 2% of cost, which Carole does not do.

There's a difference between selling an ad below cost, and selling an ad at such a low cost that you could never hope to make it back in other sales.

There's also nothing wrong with running specials or sales. None of these things are what I have been talking about.

I'm talking about one thing, and one thing only, and that is the NORMAL OPERATING advertisement cost charged to the advertiser being at ludicrously low percents of the actual ad cost.

[StashuJ]

Oh golly! This is getting to be quite a discussion now. If I am correct, I think the original message didn't have to do with boycotting anyone, just with getting the PTR industry back on track so that it can stay healthy. I can see that some fly-by-night operations probably have already sold ads at such a low cost that there was no conceivable way for them to claim to be operating a business. Then they took the money and ran, leaving subscribers and advertisers alike in the lurch. In those cases, there is no one left to boycott anyway, now, is there?

[taxlady]

Here's my take on it.

I sincerely do not believe any webmaster spends money on scripts for the purpose of setting up a site for a few months, taking in some money, and shutting down without paying anyone.

The problem is, scripts are available to anyone, even a 13 year old can purchase a paid2read site.

When you signup for a site, you have no idea who the webmaster is, how old they are etc.

These kids, don't have the stamina to face the bad times.
They think people are going to flock to their sites, buy ads, and people are going to join , click em, etc etc.

I could go on for hours, but i'll try to keep this short and sweet.

(I have a habit of writing books) hehe

So what happens is the kid gets into trouble by making a few honest mistakes or following some bad advice from his buddy webmasters who are most likely another kid with no business sense.

Teenagers seem to think they know it all anyway, so they certainly will follow their peers rather than take constuctive advice from other older webmasters etc.

I could list multiple reasons here, but it would take me a month to complete this post as there are many reasons sites fail etc.

If i fell into that category, i would have shut mec-co-op down the first month when i stupidly gave a $20 signup bonus on advice i got from another webmaster to draw in the crowd etc.

WEll in one week's time i had $180,000 debt.

It took me over 2 years, but i stuck it out, and i now have $10,000 debt....that's a decrease of $170,000 that i wiped out by giving them ads, gold membership in exchange for the $20 bonus.

One of the biggest problems 2 years ago, was everyone used CAC scripts, and Frank C, would send out new program alerts to all other webmasters, they would sign up for all the new programs, send out 1 or 2 mails to their members, build downlines and never click a link and get paid numerous times just on their referral earnings etc.

Most members who were not webmasters stood no chance of building downlines etc. The webmasters had it all....

It was totally unfair, and then scripts were so screwed up when a member in their downlines unsubscribed or got deleted, they lost all the downline underneath that member etc.

So who got blamed? The webmaster of course etc, and a lot of sites got bad publicity thru no fault of their own and got labled a scam etc.

I've been thru all that, been there done that, stuck it out, did what i had to, when better scripts became available, i had mine converted, and I believe the scripts i run now are wonderful.

Most of the problems have dissapeared.

Had i started out with these scripts as is now, i know i'd still have thousands more members that left my program because of scripting problems etc.

They are still posting in forums about their experiences 2 years ago.

It's common knowlege you only get one chance to make a first impression, and unfortunately a lot of webmasters started out with crappy scripts and made a bad impression.

Some stuck it out, did what was necessary, made changes, got ripped apart being accused of changing terms etc, etc etc..

I could go on and on, but i think you get the general idea here of what i'm trying to state.

I do not believe any webmaster including the 13 year olds start out with the intentions of scamming anyone.
They just don't have the stamina or the know-how to compensate and correct problems that arise nor do they have the patience and tollerance for the cuss mails they get from irate members who have no class, and approach the webmasters with foul language etc.

Even some adults i know who would make honest , sincere webmasters won't do it because they see the crap in the forums etc, and don't have the patience or the tollerance.

I've been told by many of my members they would post defense etc, but then they'd be ripped apart and cannot handle the pressure or the tension.

This industry would have been better off, had it been kept where scripts cost $1000 or more, and only adult competent webmasters could afford them to start off with, and had the current scripts been available way back when.

With scripts being sold for $100 we're going to be flooded with a lot of fly by night operations still.

That's the biggest problem i see, and i'm sure most of those selling ads at 2% of cost fall into that category, they know they need to compete, and probably have a higher payout and figure a lot will quit before ever reaching payouts.

I asked advice from an established webmaster who had 3 sites at the time (boycotted in this forum now)

The advice i got floored me.

1. $50 - $100 signup bonus
2. $500 payout that nobody will reach
3. $10 referral bonus, but referrals need to reach the $500 payout before you get the $10

etc etc..."Sound Familiar"?


You wouldn't believe what this webmaster confided to me as their marketing strategy. I never said anything but i sure was glad to see their sites finally get boycotted.


Members have g otten a lot smarter, it's taken 2 years for them to open their eyes and realize that nice friendly webmasters, who eventually screw them out of their money aren't who they want to support etc.

Support the one's that have a proven track record for payouts, reasonable payout, reasonable referral earnings etc.

[dcwike]

You hit the nail on the head, Taxlady!!!!!!!!

I have no idea what scripts are (I'm not a wm), but I gather it's a major contributor (next to a well designed business plan) to the success of a program.

I never thought about 13-year-old computer geeks.

Maybe it would be wise to add a 'Get to know the wm' page to GPTR programs. Or at least include a brief profile on the wm in advertisements to help us potential members.

:hehe: :laugh:

[taxlady]

I agree 100% there should be a page about the webmaster etc.

I'll give you an example without mentioning the program

I belong to several search engines as an affiliate.

One of them passed a new rule.
Pick your level you can get like 70%, 80% or 90% depending on what level you pick

But each of those levels has a $$ amount requirement

If in any month you do not meet the $$ level requirement, you would only get 1/2 your money.

When he first sent out this mail i was so turned off by it, i was going to make my payout and then quit.

I chose the $150 level because i was very close to that at the time.

I thought this was the stupidest business move i've ever seen since he gets paid 100% regardless of whether you meet your goal or not.

Kinda looked like another way to scam the members etc.


Then i get this e-mail telling me he wants us to stop promoting as he's quitting.. Seems he's a 15 year old kid and has no more time for his hobbies etc because of the time he spends onlne.

I laughed my head off..Now i understood why a webmaster would make that kind of announcement about keeping 1/2 your earnings etc...etc..

So my first instinct was to reach payout and quit


Then i get another mail from some partner (silent partner i guess) who announces this kid is staying so we can continue promoting.

My 2nd instinct was to head for the hills and i didn't promote the program for over 2 weeks.

Then i thought about it....While the kid is only 15, he did pay me for 2 months regularly....but i was just breaking even with my costs of sending the ads.

So i decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, and i started sending ads but as a 1/10th cent bonus instead of a 1cent.

Sending those as 1/10th i make a small profit daily.

And i do not have any reason to believe i won't be paid. THe only thing i'm concerned about is whether i can reach the $150 goal sending as 1/10th cent if not, it's not that big a deal as i do make enough profit that even if he cut the earnings in 1/2 id still be in profit.

I hate quitting programs when i know they pay, and have quit quite a few paid2reads that paid me multiple times because i hate nickle and diming other webmasters to death and hate when they do it to me. Fortunately the scripts now allow me to require a 50% click ratio from the member in order to get paid from their downlines, something the old scripts didn't let me do, and as i said before, for the first few months the only ones being paid were webmasters, and that bothered me considerably.

I'm now where regardless if it's a regular member or a webmaster if they don't participate, they do not earn....
I love these scripts, i can't imagine anything better, but John is forever adding new features etc....and it only gets better and better.

On the other hand in the case of search engine affiliates, i have no problem taking the $ as i'm making them money too...

Whereas in ptr by building downlines, i was just taking, taking , taking, as i build huge downlines or have in the past.

Currently other than cash hits, and my affiliate sites, i don't belong to any other programs, leaving all my time to concentrate on my own.

Another problem with a lot of these site owners, even the legitimate one's they feel they have to belong to others to earn the money to meet their payouts etc....

I made the decision a year ago, to quit all others, leaving all my downlines behind, and just concentrate on my own, and i'm making more money than before, as i can devote all my energy to my own program and not worry about the others paying me so i can pay my members etc.

I'm paying my members from ad revenue, and affiliate revenue, and have no problem with that, as they are the one's making me the $$ from the affiliate sites.

I'm finally making a few bucks for myself, more members are making more money with all the links to click and the advertisers are very happy and more and more ads coming in....so i must be doing something right.....hehe

[StashuJ]

Congratulations to the Taxlady on two very well thought out posts. You put this whole thing into persepective very nicely. Based on what you have said, I'm sticking to my original thought that longevity is the key to figuring out which programs to join.

Like DCWike, I don't know diddly about scripts or even what it takes to run a PTR. Through my couple years experience with being a member of PTR's, I know it can't be easy because way too many things seem to go wrong just when it all looks like it's running smoothly.

I have long suspected, just by the grammar in the messages that come along with the links, that there are way too many kids and way too many people who don't actually speak English running PTR's. I don't like making any sort of contract with kids because we adults are the ones left in the lurch legally no matter what under those circumstances and thre is no doubt in my mind that those kids know a whole lot more about computers than I do. And the non-English speaking webmasters make me cautious about where the sites originate (what country, etc.)

I don't mind non-English speaking webmasters as long as they aren't trying to hide that fact, by the way. My favorite site of all comes from the Netherlands. After all, there is a whole world out there and that those people are entitled to make a living. The fact that certain groups with questionable motives for wanting money band together to get it my any means possible is what has made me cautious.

The only point the taxlady made that I don't quite agree with is that no webmaster--not even the young ones who suposedly didn't know any better-- set out to take the money and run. While I give her, personally, all the credit in the world for the hard work she has done to make her own site work, I am not blind to the fact that not every anonymous webmaster out there is not as honest as she is. Although she and I don't see eye to eye on certain points, I could never call her crooked in her business dealings nor could anyone else who thought about it. In reality, her reputation for honesty in her business dealings is one of the most untarnished of all.

And DCWike, I think you have a wonderful idea with your "get to know the webmaster" forum theory.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for a well detailed explanation of the inner workings of the PTR business.

Oh, and as a last minute side note, I despise those paid search sites. If I want to find something, say about amphibians, I want to find information, not every tom, ****, and harry selling ceramic frogs! Whoever pays the most money to get their site listed gets the top spots regardless of how relavant the content. I don't like that.

I realize paid searches are a fact of life and I'm really glad the webmasters derive revenue from it to keep their sites afloat in times of trouble (I even do searches for a few of them when I have the time because certain sites are important to me for my advertising) but I wish there were some sites where I could go search and not have to wade through pikes of garbage to find what I need to know. :)

[taxlady]

Wow!!!! I'm blushing....hehe
THANK YOU!!!!!!
It's nice to see you mainly agreeing with me...hehe

I don't know about non-english speaking webmasters running an English speaking site?????
Don't know of any doing that, but that just doesn't make sense to me, but hey, it's free enterprise, but i would assume it would be very hard to communicate with members and take tremendous patience and effort on both the webmaster's part and the members.

As for my statement "I don't believe any webmaster sets out to scam anyone"
I like to give benefit of the doubt, and i'm only speaking from observation.

I used to belong to a downline club, that i truly believed in the webmaster, and i even did all the support mails and set up a support forum because the webmaster was so busy with scripts (programming) etc to handle it.

To make a long story short, in the beginning, we were supposed to earn money on our referrals that upgraded, and my account had about $400 in it.

After 2-3 months the webmaster said, no more referral earnings, but lowered the upgrade fee by 67% so i didn't have any problems with that.

Instead of paying everyone what was owed, the webmaster used that money to launch another site, which was a surfing site, 1cents a click, and within 3 days, i had a downline of over 8000 8 levels deep because of the downline club.

After about another month or so (6-7 weeks more like it) i accumulated another $600 in that program.

He worked very hard getting BIG advertisers like IBM etc.

Well since everyone was just surfing for the pennies and not purchasing anything, those advertisers decided not to pay...so now the money from the downline club used to purchase and set up the other site was gone, and no money coming in from that site to generate the income to pay off members from both sites.

In total i was screwed out of $1025 and i belive the total debt was well over $20,000

Till this day i still believe this particular webmaster had good intentions, but it blew up in his face and when he couldn't make the payouts, instead of explaining it all, he just took all the sites down and dissapeared from the face of the earth becomming just another scam in most people's eyes.

Maybe i was gullible, i don't know, but i still believe he would have paid had he been able to if things went differently.

Maybe it's because i worked so close with him, i don't know.

The point is, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that members arent' aware of. Mine are, because i tell them the good and the bad. I've been criticized for that, but i'll never change. I believe honesty is the best policy and i 'm well aware that a lot of members run for the hills if i pass on bad news etc.

Quite a few members treat webmasters like they are robots. Forgetting that the webmaster is a human being.

Quite a few webmasters treat members like dirt by not answering support mails, or ignoring them etc.

I answer every mail, but some members don't appreciate the answer they get.
It's a fact of life, you cannot please everyone.

I can't speak for other webmasters but can only go on my own experiences.

The other day, i had a member e-mail me with something like this..


Carole Dear, you come accross like a tyrant, hard as nails, but I can see right thru that, and the truth is that you are a big softee at heart.

That happens to be true, but you can't run a business being a softee.

You can't make rules and then break them because you feel sorry for someone etc...

At least you can't do that publically or a lot of people will walk all over you.

That's why i get so darn gruff with posts in the forum "complaints etc" when there's been no e-mail contact at all.

I also am gruff when the e-mail's first contact cusses me out instead of stating the problem etc, and waiting for a reply.


When people approach me privately and in a civil manner, i soften up, but when i'm approached wrongly, i can be a tyrant.

My motto is View unto others as you would like them to view unto you....but it's also treat others as you would have them treat you etc.

But i am human, therefore when someone approaches me in attack mode, i get very defensive.

Maybe it comes from childhood where i never defended myself at all and let people walk all over me.
As i got older, i got wiser and more defensive when necessary. I also learned when it's best to ignore a situation rather than drag it on and on, and i also learned when it's best to just walk away.

I'm famous for keeping negative posts alive by being so defensive. THose who know me, understand where i'm coming from. Believe me, i'm not the most loved webmaster on the web, nor am i the most hated, but i have members that love me, and i have those that hate my guts.
Doesn't affect me. Personality conflicts are a fact of life. I don't take any of it personal. Too many webmasters do.

I try to see the frustration of the other party and am usually good at figuring out whether they are just frustrated, or just out to cause trouble etc.

I also try to be diplomatic but have been known to fly off the handle at times. Not often, at least i don't see it that way.
There are times, some interpret my replies as hostile, when in fact they may contain a bit of sarcasm as i'm laughing my head off when i see people who know zippo on how to run a business trying to tell me and others how to run theirs.

Boy i could go on and on, but i won't bore you any more with this nonsense.

You made a statement that you don't always agree with me. Well that's what makes life so interesting.

I'm married to the same man for 40 years, we certainly do not agree with eachother all the time, and don't expect to...

THanks for that nice post.
It kind of made my day!
Carole

[TheBlueEyz]

Wow!!

This thread has become very active :) I'm glad to see that.

To be honest, I, too, am hesitant to suggest a site should be BOYCOTTED for underselling ads so much that they drive other companies out of business, only to then themselves go out of business because they can't pay their debts.

Yeah, that's what happens. Still, I'm hesitant to boycott a site for doing so.

We're not talking about regulation here - that's not the appropriate word or concept. We're talking about an industry that becomes self-regulating - not by law or force, but by peer pressure - and that is a VERY VALID form of control. It's the ONLY form that actually works over the long term. If people want to break a law, they'll do it anyway - but they'll think twice about violating the judgement of their peers. True, it still happens, but over the long term, I think it's got more potential for success than legal regulation.

Yes, the best test of a site's longevity is simply how long it continues to pay.. but, do I need to say, ECF and Noeys? These are just two of many.

I suppose the best suggestion I can put forward is simply to set up a warning system - if a site shows signs of being unsustainable, people are just warned that it might collapse. No boycotts, no attacks, just a warning so that people can make an informed choice before they signup (for example, a new site is offering 175% referral earnings on two levels, and selling ads to 2500 for $2.50).

As for a "get to know the webmaster" thing.. I like that idea.. what do you suggest? Were you talking about a forum, or an "About Me" page on the site?

To some degree, I think having such a page on the website would be an indicator of an unprofessional site - if we're really out to get real advertisers, they're not going to want to see an "About Me" about one person running the whole operation. It gives the sense of a lack of organization, or at least, a lack of a "business atmosphere."

But maybe that's just me...

[taxlady]

HIYA...
One thing you forget. Webmaster peers are other webmasters, and we are all in competition.

There are over 400 ptr sites, and i highly doubt that any webmaster is going to wait to make a change in ad prices to discuss it with his so called peers.

Competition for the ads is very high considering there's a lack of quality advertisements in the paid2read industry.

For a while all you saw were ads for other paid2read sites.

It's really one big headache.

What we have now is pretty good.
We have a lot of forums, but this one and the getpaid forum are the most frequented.

We have threads for good sites, we have threads for bad sites, we discuss sites to boycott, and we have another for seal of approval votes... All being done by members of the forums, who are mostly members of those type of sites.

If people posted more when they get paid, to let everyone know it would be ideal.

If they posted more when they have to wait 90 days etc, or never get paid, that would be helpful too.

If potential members checked in the forums first before signing up for every site under the sun, that would be ideal and a lot of heartache could be avoided.

But to expect webmasters to have to get together to decide on pricing etc, is unreasonable.

When i first launched mec-co-op it was launched with 15 other shareholders, i ran it 100% but was not the sole owner.

There was a lot of bickering amongst the 16 of us and i was constantly criticized for doing something without discussing it with them first.

I ended up making all of them an offer they couldn't refuse, because i couldn't stand it.

Now that was just 16 people. You're saying 400 or more webmasters......it will never happen.....
1. They are in competition, and while most are on friendly terms with others, i've seen a lot bash eachother because of the competitive nature.

There's also the jealousy factor . A lot of them hate the one's that are successful etc.

I'm sorry, but my feelings are "it's my site, it's my scripts, it's my domain and the day i have to answer to anyone or take instructions from someone else, is the day i shut it down.

I prefer things just the way they are, and as i'm sure you've seen there's a lot that like me and the way i run things, and there's a lot who don't.

Members of the forums can use their own judgement etc.
The purpose of these forums is information and we need more information about sites whether good or bad etc.

That's all the regulation we need.

If anything we need agency's to penalize those sites that claim to pay but don't.

Members work for it, they are entitled to be paid in a timely fashion and if not, there should be some place that they could complain that would force payouts etc.

Or even shut down the bad sites that don't pay...just like i've seen a few others shut down by local authorities with cease orders etc.

Another thing that i'll never understand is why someone would buy an existing site even knowing the reputation is bad.

I've seen sites sold for ridiculous amounts with tremendous deficits and then the new owner gets all the headaches.
I have no sympathy as i would never take over anyone's site no matter how good it was but certainly would never take over a site with a bad reputation.

I could name quite a few that were taken over, but i can't think of one that came out on top, and most ended up giving up because they couldn't take the pressure.

It's much better to start from scratch, announce yourself to other similar sites members etc etc and build your own reputation from scratch.

[StashuJ]

Taxlady, you are welcome. :)

BluEyz, the forum is divided up into sections for good, bad, boycotted, etc. Why not just add a section entitled: "About the webmasters -- favorite and not so favorite" and invite the webmasters to post and the members who are not webmasters to post questions or comments. I know this should be done through the websites but not all webmasters bother to answer mail and some are so short with their answers they tick off their subscribers. Sometimes people see the person they thought was so horrible in a different light when they see something in writing -- sometimes good light, sometimes bad. The only drawback here would be for the webmasters who aren't such hot spellers or typists.

However, this should be some sort of voluntary thing and the webmasters should be asked to refrain (and hopefully they will) from asking their members to come post glowing comments about them on the board because that is what has fouled up the "good programs" section to start with.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth. DCWike, who I view as one smart cookie, may have some other suggestions :)

[TheBlueEyz]

Hmmm..

Well I'm not talking about webmasters getting together on ad prices, either. That is called price fixing and happens to be EXTREMELY illegal in the United States.

I'm talking about something not run by webmasters, similar to USDollar's BeenPaid site.

Fact is, there's probably already sites out there that do what we're talking about, we just haven't seen them. Such sites exist for HYIP's, it's good bet they exist for PTRs too.

It's all fine and good to say "My site, my scripts, to hell with what you think." Only thing is, if we don't regulate ourselves, the government will do it for us (or shut everything down altogether). And they won't take well to someone saying "It's my business, get the hell out of it."

I hate government regulation. I despise it. The only alternative is peer pressure.

There's no need for you to take this personally, Carole. Your site does not qualify for anything I have mentioned. You undersell your ads only by the amount of your referral earnings, and I KNOW you have other ways (GOOD ways) to earn back the difference.

You know the kind of sites I'm talking about, and yours isn't on that list.

I like your program, and I respect you, both as a businesswoman and as a webmistress. I know the trials you've been through, and I look upon you as one of the wisest, most experienced people in this industry.

It's just... the situation seems to be getting worse, not better..

And you're right about the script prices. I too have thought to myself, 'If those scripts just cost $1000 instead of $100, we wouldn't have ANY of these problems.' I might email the respective script sellers and suggest this..

I guess the worst they could do is say no...

[taxlady]

Why thank you!
I'm blushing again

I agree obviously, but hey i'm not that wize. I just operate on a trial and error system.

If it works, i keep it, if it doesn't or irritates a few, i dump it. etc.

I finally figured out something that seems to work pretty well, but it's taken me 2 years to reach that point with a lot of sweat and tears. (just a phrase) believe me i don't cry over any of this.

I come from a family of businessmen and women and i've also got 19 years in direct sales so i use the knowlege i've gained over the years and apply certain things when appropriate.

Times change, and some ideas i've come up were no good, but i realize that quickly and change it to something else.

I'm constantly looking for ways to improve.

I can't tell you how fortunate i feel to have hooked up with John's scripts because i would have shut down a long time ago had i had to stick with the old ones.

Even now, with a 1500 member data base loss, and we haven't figured out what happend, i still feel that way.
I have total confidence in John's ability to fix the problem for me via backup.

Obviously it's not the scripts or other sites updating would have the same problem.

Since i'm on a dedicated server, i doubt it was a partial hack, but who knows.....we may never know for sure, could have just been some stupid glitch.

I noticed it right after updateing the scripts last night, but i do belive that's pure co-incedence.

Hopefully that will be straightend out before i leave. if not jeffry will just do what's necessary to keep it going till i get back.

I've told john he should charge a lot more for his scripts, but
he keeps cutting pricing.....some people just enjoy what they do too much and john's one of those.

His scripts are worth a lot more than he sells them for.
I also feel when he does updates with add-on's he should charge for them...after all, he's constantly improving them. but john's john and he does all the updates free.

Biggest problem is too many sites, and cheap scripts.

When ptr first came out, people paid over $2000 for the scripts and they were no where's as good as they are now.

[SelfSupportive]

Well, I was suggesting it be a criteria for boycotting. Otherwise I probably wouldn't be discussing it here . However, I was NOT suggesting any set level, I was not suggesting any price fixing system, I was not talking about temporary pricing.

I'm talking about programs that set their prices so low that they blatantly can NOT regain those losses through other means. I don't really give a hoot if you think I'm threatening your sovereign right to do what you want in your business - that's not my point.

As I posted very early in the thread, and was later repeated by Rob, a major problem with the idea is getting people to agree on what level of underselling is even vaguely feasible.

However, I'm now quite convinced it can't be done, simply because too many of the sharks who run their programs this way are active in the various forums, and will stifle any constructive debate about the matter.

In fact I become more and more convinced every day that such program owners actually see it as morally/ethically acceptable to run a program on a basis of only those who get in early and get big downlines will ever get paid (note Jay's post above for an example). Wonderful, let's all watch as the PTR industry goes stinking down the MLM toilet. 'Cause that's what it has mostly become. How depressing.:(

[JaysPaidMail]

TaxLady ~

I think you should write a book ~ Self~ Titled the ~

TaxLady's View Points ~ On the PTR World today !

~~ LoL ~~

Nice Job on your Post took awhile to read but woth the time .

Jay :)

[taxlady]

Thanks Jay!

[emil]

I doubt the main problem is that it's cheap to set up a GPTR site.
There are numerous e-business systems that are completely free (both as in free beer as well as in freedom), for example Interchange. Yet, you don't see it used by spammers or fraudulent GP-webmasters.
That is simply because it is geared towards running a webshop and selling goods, which has much less potential of being used to rip off people compared to GP that belongs to the businesses with the lowest reputation.
I think the problem is that it's 1. very similar to illegal pyramid-games and the inefficient & often fraudulent MLM, 2. there is basically no skill required to run such a business for a while, 3. the advertising often doesn't pay for normal, honest businesses that don't come up with the next "make money fast"-crap for the members to sign up at.
The analysis on acidics.com about get paid programs says a lot of true things about them, although it's too drastic in my opinion (that's why I'm still here ;).
But as it exists now, this business is simply too closely related to pyramid games and spam. The money has to come from somewhere, something must be wrong if most ads on many sites are from other GPTR-programs instead of companies with a genuine product that generates real money! And I don't even understand that "search engine"-nonsense, obviously these engines are completely superfluous and don't offer any benefit over Yahoo or Google other than somehow generating money for the owner in miraculous ways I again don't understand, so why would anyone ever use them.
So my suggestions are: drop the search ads, and most important, drop the referral system! This would kill all the pyramid bull**** going around this business, with the people earning most who know best how to trick others into following them instead of the people buying products that get advertised. At the very least, it should never be possible to make more money with the downline than with direct activity.
More regulation would not hurt, either. Here in Germany, every business website MUST have a masthead with personal info about the owner, even the tax ID number if he's a merchant. Also, the terms must clearly state what's in for the user. Check "impressum" on email-money.de or "kontakt" at jes-computer.de to see what I mean, and now compare that to what most american sites give you. Not surprisingly, GPTR is not plagued by so many scams here, also, it does not pay nearly as much as in the US because of the scepticism of the people here as well as the lack of dishonest greed provoked by false promises.
I think people in the US demand too much of this. The attempt to do more with it than it can manifests in far too high paying ads and lots of GPTR-sites getting into serious trouble. Ads for more ads for more ads can't work for long.

[TheBlueEyz]

Originally posted by emil
I doubt the main problem is that it's cheap to set up a GPTR site.

I didn't mean to imply that the chief problem is the low script price; it's more that if the script price were higher, people with NO business sense wouldn't be able to buy them. Consequently, you wouldn't have people with no business sense, setting up GPT websites.

It's kind of like taking the knife away from someone determined to cut themselves. They can try all they want, but without the knife, they won't get anywhere. Same thing with scripts. Take away the script, and someone's bad business sense can't do any harm.



I think the problem is that it's 1. very similar to illegal pyramid-games and the inefficient & often fraudulent MLM, 2. there is basically no skill required to run such a business for a while, 3. the advertising often doesn't pay for normal, honest businesses that don't come up with the next "make money fast"-crap for the members to sign up at.


Agreed, on all counts. The chief problem IS the MLM like nature of it. It's what attracts the defrauders, the cheaters, and the abusers.

I've also added one to that list, which also happens to be mentioned at the acidics website: at the moment, GPTR doesn't really provide any unique content or service. Nothing is created that is original, in order to actually create wealth.. it's simply moving money around from hand to hand, each person shearing off their percentage.

I'm currently trying to think of ways to change the whole approach GPTR uses.. I have the beginnings of some ideas.


And I don't even understand that "search engine"-nonsense, obviously these engines are completely superfluous and don't offer any benefit over Yahoo or Google other than somehow generating money for the owner in miraculous ways I again don't understand, so why would anyone ever use them.


Search engines get their money from advertisers who purchase clicks through them. This is a billion-dollar-a-year business.

Problem with the scrictly PPC engines is, they ONLY return results from paid advertisers - which explains the quality of the search results. Informative pages aren't paid for. ;)



More regulation would not hurt, either. Here in Germany, every business website MUST have a masthead with personal info about the owner, even the tax ID number if he's a merchant. Also, the terms must clearly state what's in for the user. Check "impressum" on email-money.de or "kontakt" at jes-computer.de to see what I mean, and now compare that to what most american sites give you.

I hesitate at regulation. The government rarely knows what's best. Over time, people do learn what is best - and any system that intends to be successful over the long term, changes according to what it learns.

I do think that we'd all benefit from some measure to make WM's more accountable and less anonymous. They're running business and handling money - there's no call for them being anonymous. At least, not at this point. No, I don't know the names of people who run multinational corporations... but they aren't difficult to contact when you have a problem, either.


I think people in the US demand too much of this. The attempt to do more with it than it can manifests in far too high paying ads and lots of GPTR-sites getting into serious trouble.

That argument has been made before.. there's a demand for a very high click price that just isn't justified. One, the advertising isn't worth it, and 2, you're clicking on a LINK for god's sake. Too many of these programs are trying to make it out to look like people will get rich doing this, when it's not at all true. It's nice to get a few extra dollars from doing this, but that's all.

I do like the homepage of Payday-Mail.com - "Please note, Payday-Mail is NOT a "get rich quick" program. It takes time and effort and lots of active referrals."

At least they're honest. They send out a few emails per week. I honestly never expected to get more. If they were one of a few programs out there, it's likely that they would be a very profitable program. Part of the problem is that there's just so blasted many of them.


Ads for more ads for more ads can't work for long.

That's the other thing.. we need real ads! I'm working on that too :)

[StashuJ]

But as it exists now, this business is simply too closely related to pyramid games and spam.

I have to agree with that. It seems that the people who collect up names and addresses in order to send out spam buy enormous numbers of ads, their subscribers buy up more, and the next thing you know we all wade through piles of useless mail to get to the mail we asked to receive. I will admit that it has always been that way but it is worse than ever lately. I have got to the point where I won't do business with anyone who uses an autoresponder because I feel if they can't take the time to write a simple note to answer a simple question without filling my mailbox with "robot" replies, I don't need to be doing business with them.

I have found that the smaller sites whose ads are normally less expensive are more efficient in terms of my being able to sell the items I advertise. The more members a site has, the more attractive it seems to the crackpots and con artists.

As for all the bubble games and those other scams that say pay so and so five bucks and your account will miraculously fill up with money overnight, I'm really getting sick of them. But I have to say that at least I don't get a box full of spam for clicking on the links the way you do if you click on the sales ads from the international distributors of every new invention.

I can understand that it is good revenue for the webmasters but it is bad for the people who click the links and I'd like to see an end to it, along with those infernal pop-ups that crash my browser every time I forget to turn on my pop up killer.

[dcwike]

GPTR programs that don't push for referrals, don't request paid searches, don't advertise other gptr programs every one already belongs to, and don't advertise programs known to have spyware (that causes unwanted mail and/or pop-ups!!!!!!!
That's my dream.

Of course, that would mean owners and webmasters would have to bust their butts off seeking legitimate, commercial advertising - just like magazines and tv.

I really think there is room for that here if we'd get rid of the bad name this business has.

There are good things to purchase on the net. If we could get those people to advertise on gptr's I think they would get results:

vitamins
insurance (car, life, mortgage)
toys, etc.

People would gladly read these ads to get paid - and, they would actually READ the offers.

I am just Soooooooooo bored looking at other gptr programs that I"ve already signed up for or not worth the effort.

Please don't think this is a vendetta against good, honest webmasters and PO's that are really trying to make this work.

I'm just saying that, over-all, we need a change in this business. We need to make it look good enough to get REAL advertising.

[StashuJ]

LOL And what a dream it would be DC Wike!

I have actually bought things from those advertisers who have legitimate products to sell on many occasions. In addition, I know that a great deal of my business is generated from the ads I send to PTR's.

Seems to me there must be a way to eliminate the crackpots if the webmasters actually wanted to do that.

And, since the referral aspect of things was mentioned, I think those doggone "contests" are a pain in the neck!

I don't have anything against ads for other PTR's but I'd like to see them at least balanced out with ads for actual products. That would be of assistance to everyone who actually sells a tangible object.

And I actually believe that an effort to solicit such ads on the part of the webmasters would lend a great deal of legitimacy to the sites, thereby improving the entire industry overall.

[TheBlueEyz]

To dcwike and Stashu..

Well I was going to respond to your posts individually, but you both brought up excellent points....

The program I am planning on opening has BEEN in planning since July, and we're STILL working on new ideas, new scripts, and revamps of some existing methods.

One major change: No gold memberships.

Other features: No points, very low referral earnings (on 2 levels only) to disuade cheaters and big builders.

Denied ad types: No MLM, no bubbles, no randomizers, no known scams, no HYIPs, and nothing else that I might find objectionable. In other words, the only thing left that I'm leaving room for is real ads for real products. I'm still trying to decide whether to allow advertising for other PTRs sand searches. I think I might, at the beginning, while I spend time looking for other types of advertising. However, if there is a change, it will occur early on (in order to begin encouraging real ads VERY EARLY ON).

I'm also building other areas of the site that most PTRs do not have, portal-like features like news and articles (did you know that it costs $1500 to license per news article from MSN to be printed on your website? UGH).

There is currently a thread at the GPF regarding major changes to the industry.. I'm soaking up that thread. It's funny, alot of the suggestions are things I've already done...

Stashu.. as for WM's actively seeking out other types of advertising, lending credibility to the industry, I agree with you. That's part of what I'm trying to figure out how to do. The current state of this 'industry' is very sad.. mostly because of the reputation it has. I would like to see if that reputation can be changed.

One other interesting area we might think about... market research. You know that any business that does any real advertising has very involved psychological studies to determine the most effective advertising. That's probably something we should look into, when the time is right..

[Mobius]

Something I'm seriously thinking about doing is giving a discount(or more ads per buck) if what the advertisser is advertising is NOT connected to the PTR world(eg another program)

Any thoughts on this?

[StashuJ]

One other interesting area we might think about... market research. You know that any business that does any real advertising has very involved psychological studies to determine the most effective advertising.

Unfortunately , the marketing gurus all claim that safelists and pop ups are the way to go when it comes to selling stuff. Perhaps there was a time when that was the case but it sure hasn't been the case for most of this year. Safelists started out OK but then way too many people jumped on the bandwagon trying to sell people the privilege of their mailing lists and it all skidded down hill. Pop ups were kind of cute ten years ago before they got to be like a popcorn machine with every page you open. I never did get involved with pop-ups because by the time I started selling anything on line, I already hated them and the "do unto others" line is etched into my brain.

I'd love to see what you do with this site where all the garbage gets cut out of the herd. As for ads for the PTR's being banned, perhaps only the PTR's who like to turn it into a circus with the main goal as downlines should be banned.

Good luck with it and I can't wait to join so be absolutely certain that you send me an invitation to at least run ads.

[StashuJ]

Sorry, Mobius, I was concentrating on the BluEyz's post and didn't see yours until after I'd already put up my answer.

You might set up a section on your site for advertisers with only tangible products to sell and see what happens.

I'd be interested in how many readers are actually looking for products or who are just looking for a few cents regardless of where the money comes from. I personally have stopped clicking on searches with the exception of one site that I support because I like the webmaster and I don't even click a third of his. Lately, the searches are as much a nuisence as the pop ups because he who pays most gets top billing and it doesn't necessarily mean his site has anything to do with the search string.

[Mobius]

Thats a good idea...I've put it on my "to-do list"...along with several other items, but for the mean time I'll offer extra ads for the same price

[emil]

@theblueeyez:

Okay now I understand how these search-pages pay their owners, but I still don't get why anyone would use them instead of Yahoo, Google etc.

BTW; what I'm also missing apart from ads for real products (sometimes there are some, the best so far was beermachine.com ;), is ads for porn cause that fits to the GP business' reputation (hehe) while being able to attract a lot of money.
I have to say though that the porn paid2click ads at Cashroyal pay susprisingly bad.

A question, which programs do you people run? I know taxlady runs mec-co-op, but the others?

[StashuJ]

I don't run any paid to read. I'm a retailer who uses the PTR
programs as a lucrative method of advertising. I woudln't have the patience and I don't have any desire to run such a site but I can tell you that I am very, very grateful for those who do.

As for using Google and Yahoo, have you noticed that THEY are starting to let whoever pays them the most have top billing, too. I really wish we had some source of "real" search engine where you could put in search words and find things relevant to what you seek.

As for the porn searches, no thanks. I get enough crap in my mailbox without that. I wouldn't wade through that muck if they paid me fifty bucks a page. However, I have nothing whatsoever against people who are of age and want to see that stuff having access to it. And I appreciate the few webmasters who allow "adult" sites setting them up in a different area where those of us who aren't interested don't have to get any surprises. (Not sure I belong to any of those anymore, to be honest, because most who allow that also allow unlimited pop ups and I only belong to one such site that does that and, as soon as I reach payout, it will be adios to that one.)