Boycott KittensPTR

[Josh]

I would like to nominate KittensPTR for a boycott. My belief is that one would be fully deserved based on the information I have found. If anyone else knows something about the site, one way or the other, I would be glad to consider that as well.

Here's what first tipped me, an email from the owner (source (http://beenpaid.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2881)):

I know how much you all hate the admin mails so I will make this short

I've received a number of complaints about the pop ups and pop unders
Let me explain please (They are being removed from front pages)
This explanation is for most if not all PTR and PTC programs

We add the pops to make the money to pay you all with them without we have to find other avenues
Which I'm sad to say there isn't many yet

But you see all the banners and text ads on home pages they are there to earn with
If every one would search or do a click which is your right you don't have to
we'd all be rich

When I check the stats and lets say
Joe
Mary
Jw
all clicked a text ad which some do and they generate 1 dollar a day
Hmm thats 30 dollars a month enought to pay hosting

Now we have site repairs and upgrades for gaes and such and of course we have to pay you for your work

now we look and we made 700 dollars off the pops cool we can pay every one
Now if we look and there is no Pops no money now what do we do to pay ok we create ad specials to bring in the money to pay yipee

But say no one buys OH my were in the hole now and the bank account is going down
But we still must pay

So my question is when you see an ad that says support on any site why not give that a minute to click

Or you visit a site front page or ptp page look at the advertisers and give it a click doesn't hurt or take much time but builds the site earnings up so they can pay

Thats all for that

I am going to be adding Alert pay as a buying and payout action

And Thank you all

Just by reading that, we can already come to a few conclusions:

1. The site is not sustainable without members artificially increasing the ad revenue: "We add the pops to make the money to pay you all with them without we have to find other avenues Which I'm sad to say there isn't many yet."

2. The owner doesn't mind begging/incentivizing ad clicks and searches by suggesting that "If every one would search or do a click which is your right you don't have to we'd all be rich."

3. The owner doesn't mind contributing to click fraud by guiding members in stating: "So my question is when you see an ad that says support on any site why not give that a minute to click."

4. The owner doesn't mind justifying click fraud by saying that it's necessary for the site to be viable: "When I check the stats and lets say Joe Mary Jw all clicked a text ad which some do and they generate 1 dollar a day Hmm thats 30 dollars a month enought to pay hosting" and "Now we have site repairs and upgrades for gaes and such and of course we have to pay you for your work" and "Or you visit a site front page or ptp page look at the advertisers and give it a click doesn't hurt or take much time but builds the site earnings up so they can pay."

Interesting, I thought any legitimate site would pay for its members' work because it sold advertisements. In this case, the work is not paid for by sold ads, but can only be covered if members go out of their way to click published ads on the site to pull in additional, illegitimate revenue for the owner. Is the owner running his/her own ads and not getting the results expected? Are ads being sold but at a price way too low?

I decided to go look at the site and saw that the homepage has Yahoo Ads, AdBrite, AdMedian, LinkBuddies and Axill, amongst others. I'm sure those companies and their advertisers would be thrilled to know that members are told that clicking on ads keeps the site going and keeps the payments coming. I'm sure their other publishers would love to know that members are asked to click on ads regardless of their interest, bringing worse results to the advertisers meaning less ads for those publishers to serve, and less value for the ones that they do serve.

I wonder if the owner read this part of AdBrite's terms: "If Subscriber is a publisher, Subscriber shall not, and shall not authorize or encourage any third party to (i) generate fraudulent impressions of or fraudulent clicks on any advertisement."

Was this part read, either? "(iv) display any advertisements on any error page, registration or "thank you" page (e.g. a page that thanks a user after he/she has registered with the applicable website)." Here's a screenshot of the registration page (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrjoin.jpg), with the "Your Ad Here" highlighted to show it is from AdBrite.

You can find AdBrite's terms in the box at the end of this page (http://www.adbrite.com/mb/publisher_landing_page.php), in case you want to read them for yourself. If I had more time I'd compare and contrast KittensPTR to the rest of their terms, and all of the other networks' terms, but this is a start.

Here's what the site looks like at the top (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptr1.jpg), here's a peek at the middle (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptr2.jpg), and this is the bottom (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptr3.jpg) third. That's right, 13 full-size or larger banner and text ads, a blocked pop up, a search box, a text link and a smaller 125x125 image ad. I'm all for allowing someone to run as many ads on a page as they want, as long as in doing so they don't violate any agreements with those networks (and I don't know if that is happening here). All I'm curious about is why clicking on these even needs to be suggested after there are so many of them. Is the site really that unsustainable? Are 17 total ads on the homepage alone not bringing enough revenue in without coercing more than a natural number of clicks?

After that, I took a look at their referral system. Here's what the FAQ (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrref1.jpg) claims. Then, this is what the script (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrref2.jpg) actually gives. That's 20%, 10%, 5%, 3%, 2% and 1% vs. 10%, 5%, 4%, 3%, 2% and 1% - or a total of 41% vs. 25%. That doesn't seem very honest if you ask me.

I'm sure other issues exist that haven't even been noted yet. I could go on about publisher terms being broken but I'd like to look at the picture from some other angles as well. This is a long enough read already, so I'll wait to see what you have to add or say about the site.

Josh

[marissas]

I would like to nominate KittensPTR for a boycott. My belief is that one would be fully deserved based on the information I have found. If anyone else knows something about the site, one way or the other, I would be glad to consider that as well.

Here's what first tipped me, an email from the owner (source (http://beenpaid.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2881)):



Just by reading that, we can already come to a few conclusions:

1. The site is not sustainable without members artificially increasing the ad revenue: "We add the pops to make the money to pay you all with them without we have to find other avenues Which I'm sad to say there isn't many yet."

2. The owner doesn't mind begging/incentivizing ad clicks and searches by suggesting that "If every one would search or do a click which is your right you don't have to we'd all be rich."

3. The owner doesn't mind contributing to click fraud by guiding members in stating: "So my question is when you see an ad that says support on any site why not give that a minute to click."

4. The owner doesn't mind justifying click fraud by saying that it's necessary for the site to be viable: "When I check the stats and lets say Joe Mary Jw all clicked a text ad which some do and they generate 1 dollar a day Hmm thats 30 dollars a month enought to pay hosting" and "Now we have site repairs and upgrades for gaes and such and of course we have to pay you for your work" and "Or you visit a site front page or ptp page look at the advertisers and give it a click doesn't hurt or take much time but builds the site earnings up so they can pay."

Interesting, I thought any legitimate site would pay for its members' work because it sold advertisements. In this case, the work is not paid for by sold ads, but can only be covered if members go out of their way to click published ads on the site to pull in additional, illegitimate revenue for the owner. Is the owner running his/her own ads and not getting the results expected? Are ads being sold but at a price way too low?

I decided to go look at the site and saw that the homepage has Yahoo Ads, AdBrite, AdMedian, LinkBuddies and Axill, amongst others. I'm sure those companies and their advertisers would be thrilled to know that members are told that clicking on ads keeps the site going and keeps the payments coming. I'm sure their other publishers would love to know that members are asked to click on ads regardless of their interest, bringing worse results to the advertisers meaning less ads for those publishers to serve, and less value for the ones that they do serve.

I wonder if the owner read this part of AdBrite's terms: "If Subscriber is a publisher, Subscriber shall not, and shall not authorize or encourage any third party to (i) generate fraudulent impressions of or fraudulent clicks on any advertisement."

Was this part read, either? "(iv) display any advertisements on any error page, registration or "thank you" page (e.g. a page that thanks a user after he/she has registered with the applicable website)." Here's a screenshot of the registration page (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrjoin.jpg), with the "Your Ad Here" highlighted to show it is from AdBrite.

You can find AdBrite's terms in the box at the end of this page (http://www.adbrite.com/mb/publisher_landing_page.php), in case you want to read them for yourself. If I had more time I'd compare and contrast KittensPTR to the rest of their terms, and all of the other networks' terms, but this is a start.

Here's what the site looks like at the top (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptr1.jpg), here's a peek at the middle (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptr2.jpg), and this is the bottom (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptr3.jpg) third. That's right, 13 full-size or larger banner and text ads, a blocked pop up, a search box, a text link and a smaller 125x125 image ad. I'm all for allowing someone to run as many ads on a page as they want, as long as in doing so they don't violate any agreements with those networks (and I don't know if that is happening here). All I'm curious about is why clicking on these even needs to be suggested after there are so many of them. Is the site really that unsustainable? Are 17 total ads on the homepage alone not bringing enough revenue in without coercing more than a natural number of clicks?

After that, I took a look at their referral system. Here's what the FAQ (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrref1.jpg) claims. Then, this is what the script (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrref2.jpg) actually gives. That's 20%, 10%, 5%, 3%, 2% and 1% vs. 10%, 5%, 4%, 3%, 2% and 1% - or a total of 41% vs. 25%. That doesn't seem very honest if you ask me.

I'm sure other issues exist that haven't even been noted yet. I could go on about publisher terms being broken but I'd like to look at the picture from some other angles as well. This is a long enough read already, so I'll wait to see what you have to add or say about the site.

Josh


I see no begging in this email. Are you even a member of this site? if you are not where did you get the email from and what gives you the right to post an email not belonging to you on a public forum?

If you were a member you would know all members are always paid and on time. The webmaster never hesitates to pay a member.

All I see is a webmaster trying to answer a question for members to understand why he uses popups on his sites. Maybe he never used all the correct words that would make you happy, but he is a very hard working man who trys his best to keep his members happy. There should be more webmasters who care so much about his/her members.

There are plenty of sites out there that do not pay their members or who are 6 months to a year behind in payouts if you really need to bash someone and try to hurt a site.

I don't see any mention for members to click on the adbrite ads. Where in that email do you see the word AdBrite? He could be talking banners, side sponsor links from other members or anything for all you know from that email.

If you are a member of any of his sites I suggest you quit since you seem to have a problem with the owner. If not you have no rights to that members email you so blatantly posted on a public forum. That is called theft.

Sry, If I ruffled any feathers, but I hate it when good paying sites are trashed.

[Josh]

Hi marissas,

Your questions and concerns were mainly answered in my first post, but I will clear them up as best I can.

The email was publicly available. I always mention my sources, and this time it came from here (http://beenpaid.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2881), as noted in the opening post. I have every right to repost material from a public site. There's no theft involved in that, otherwise, I suppose you would have "stolen" my post when you quoted it as well. :)

Did I say members were not paid? I don't recall saying that. All I said was that I disliked a number of the practices.

Did I bash someone or try to hurt a site? All I did was state facts, a lot of them, and all with evidence. If there's any bashing being done to the owner it isn't by me, and if the site is being hurt that can only be because of what it does, not because what it does was pointed out. If no wrong is committed, then how will a wrong be pointed out?

Marissas, it doesn't have to say AdBrite by name. Did you even read what I quoted out of AdBrite's terms?

"If Subscriber is a publisher, Subscriber shall not, and shall not authorize or encourage any third party to (i) generate fraudulent impressions of or fraudulent clicks on any advertisement."

I added the bold. It's clear to me why the company would state it that way. There are people in this world who would say to click on the ads, not mention AdBrite by name, and then claim that it wasn't fraud because it wasn't "specific." There are also people in this world who would defend owners who use those fraudulent tactics. That's probably the main reason why AdBrite says it just like that.

Just to clear things up, I have no "problem with the owner" as you mentioned. I have a "problem" with very few people in this world, only the most vile. Scamming advertisers and members, and running a business in a shoddy way may be bad practices, but they don't qualify as the "most vile" to me. I'm still capable of seeing both good and bad in whatever the owner says.

Case in point, I didn't bring up every sentence in the email, did I? Where there was something that I saw as dishonest, fraudulent, or otherwise bad, I mentioned it. If I didn't see hard evidence of anything wrong, I didn't say that it was wrong.

As I mentioned, it was "begging / incentivizing" and both are not allowed. Saying that the site needs it to be able to pay hosting bills sounds like begging to me. I have a feeling it sounds like begging to AdBrite, as well. Saying that the site needs it to be able to pay members sounds like incentivizing to me, too. AdBrite would most likely concur. If you ask me, "shall not authorize or encourage any third party to (i) generate fraudulent impressions of or fraudulent clicks" sounds rather clear.

Does the owner really care so much about his members? Well, maybe he does, he seems to be trying really hard to get the money to pay them... at the expense of advertisers in those publishing networks that are being ripped off by fraudulent clicks.

Then again, maybe he doesn't. If he really cared about them and being able to pay what he owed, wouldn't he sell ads at the proper rate to be able to pay? It sounds to me like he's banking on those fraudulent clicks turning into a paycheck. What if one of those networks finds out that he's violating their terms and doesn't pay him? According to the email, his site is quite literally unsustainable without that added income. Doesn't sound to me like he cares all that much for his members, after all.

It may be a paying site, at least for now while the fraudulent clicks make up for the unsustainable ad sales. I don't deny that. Paying doesn't always mean good though. That's where we disagree.

Don't worry, though, you haven't ruffled any feathers, at least not here.

Take care.

Josh

I see no begging in this email. Are you even a member of this site? if you are not where did you get the email from and what gives you the right to post an email not belonging to you on a public forum?

If you were a member you would know all members are always paid and on time. The webmaster never hesitates to pay a member.

All I see is a webmaster trying to answer a question for members to understand why he uses popups on his sites. Maybe he never used all the correct words that would make you happy, but he is a very hard working man who trys his best to keep his members happy. There should be more webmasters who care so much about his/her members.

There are plenty of sites out there that do not pay their members or who are 6 months to a year behind in payouts if you really need to bash someone and try to hurt a site.

I don't see any mention for members to click on the adbrite ads. Where in that email do you see the word AdBrite? He could be talking banners, side sponsor links from other members or anything for all you know from that email.

If you are a member of any of his sites I suggest you quit since you seem to have a problem with the owner. If not you have no rights to that members email you so blatantly posted on a public forum. That is called theft.

Sry, If I ruffled any feathers, but I hate it when good paying sites are trashed.

[marissas]

I am sorry josh, I understand you are just trying to warn people, but I don't see the email the same way you do. I see it as just trying to explain to his members why he uses popups.

If you read threads on this forum how people keep telling the PO's to find other revenues I think this is all he is doing. Finding other revenues for his sites.

As for adbrite and the others this email wasn't even actually about those companys. It was mean't just for the popups explanation.

As I said before, he may not have used his words real carefully, but was just trying to explain why popups were used.

The other stuff was just another way trying to explain the popups again.

Many sites use popups for the exact same reasons, to earn extra revenue for site hosting expenses, etc.

JMHO

[wolf401]

Hi
My name is Grant I'm the owner in Question
Let me first state I don't beg or incentize clicks
I have no need to
At current time I have 28 sites total and not all are paid to read or click sites

Now you were talking ad brite as far as I know they don't pay for the clicks
most of the banners you see are paid to view
Now if you click fine if not fine also
I just got rid of bid viser because they said I was making incentive clicks
well lets put this to test
40,000 page views where there links were at lot of views
100 clicks hmmm interesting
If I was begging or making incentive clicks from a site that has a member base of 2000 with a click rate of 85% I think the click thrus would be alot more

Ok that email was ent to answer Questions people asked
Why all the POP ups and pop unders?
Why all the flashing banners and site links?
Theses are some questions I'm asked all the time
I get webmasters that are new and want to know why all the banners
what I should say sorry buddy figure it out for yourself

Now out of all the content banners you see how many pay ?
Good question
I have them on the site to be seen and members to click if interested
now the company deceides not to pay or folds after a month or 2 well lets see
Wasted Time and space that could have beeen used for a more reliable party
I myself have clicked on things and bought and used the items I clicked on

Mad mailer ,send ads,generator html,buy scripts
to name a few
And for you nominating me for ban thats all good I know me and my soul
so I make no excuses or defend my actions maybe my words are not as articulate as you think they should be I am sorry
I never said I was a writter
Thanks for your time all
Grant

[azhippie]

"We add the pops to make the money to pay you all with them without we have to find other avenues
Which I'm sad to say there isn't many yet"

That part bothers me. A site should be able to pay members with the money from selling ads. That makes a site 'sustainable'.

[Josh]

I am sorry josh, I understand you are just trying to warn people, but I don't see the email the same way you do. I see it as just trying to explain to his members why he uses popups.
As for adbrite and the others this email wasn't even actually about those companys. It was mean't just for the popups explanation.
As I said before, he may not have used his words real carefully, but was just trying to explain why popups were used.
The other stuff was just another way trying to explain the popups again.

Marissas,

I see you four times in your recent post where you say that he was "just" trying to explain about the popups. Unfortunately, when I look at what he actually said, it doesn't quite line up with that.

For starters:

"But you see all the banners and text ads on home pages they are there to earn with
If every one would search or do a click which is your right you don't have to
we'd all be rich"

Then:

"When I check the stats and lets say
Joe
Mary
Jw
all clicked a text ad which some do and they generate 1 dollar a day
Hmm thats 30 dollars a month enought to pay hosting"

After that:

"Now we have site repairs and upgrades for gaes and such and of course we have to pay you for your work"

Next in line:

"But say no one buys OH my were in the hole now and the bank account is going down
But we still must pay"

Around the corner:

"So my question is when you see an ad that says support on any site why not give that a minute to click"

Down the bend:

"Or you visit a site front page or ptp page look at the advertisers and give it a click doesn't hurt or take much time but builds the site earnings up so they can pay"

Coming to a screeching halt:

"I am going to be adding Alert pay as a buying and payout action"

To be fair, there was a little bit about pop ups.

Like this:

"I've received a number of complaints about the pop ups and pop unders
Let me explain please (They are being removed from front pages)
This explanation is for most if not all PTR and PTC programs

We add the pops to make the money to pay you all with them without we have to find other avenues
Which I'm sad to say there isn't many yet"

And this:

"now we look and we made 700 dollars off the pops cool we can pay every one
Now if we look and there is no Pops no money now what do we do to pay ok we create ad specials to bring in the money to pay yipee"

That's all.

If you ask me, most of the email has nothing to do with pop ups. Even the few sentences that are talking about pop ups are mainly complaints about a lack of revenue and just mentioning that the pop ups are necessary.

The rest, seems to cover everything from click fraud to rants that I personally don't feel are suitable for sending out in a business contact.


If you read threads on this forum how people keep telling the PO's to find other revenues I think this is all he is doing. Finding other revenues for his sites.

I have absolutely nothing against an owner trying to find new streams of revenue. I'd just prefer for the sake of his members that his business be stable without it (that it be a bonus to him, or business growth), and for the sake of all others that it didn't come fraudulently.

Look again at the vital nature he has given these ads, which according to any sound business plan should be supplemental (my emphasis):

"We add the pops to make the money to pay you all with them without we have to find other avenues
Which I'm sad to say there isn't many yet"

"When I check the stats and lets say
Joe
Mary
Jw
all clicked a text ad which some do and they generate 1 dollar a day
Hmm thats 30 dollars a month enought to pay hosting

Now we have site repairs and upgrades for gaes and such and of course we have to pay you for your work

now we look and we made 700 dollars off the pops cool we can pay every one
Now if we look and there is no Pops no money now what do we do to pay ok we create ad specials to bring in the money to pay yipee

But say no one buys OH my were in the hole now and the bank account is going down
But we still must pay"

"Or you visit a site front page or ptp page look at the advertisers and give it a click doesn't hurt or take much time but builds the site earnings up so they can pay"
Does this sound to you like a stable business with an owner who took steps to ensure that the site is fundamentally capable of staying along for the ride, even on the gravel roads?


Many sites use popups for the exact same reasons, to earn extra revenue for site hosting expenses, etc.

If he wants to use pop ups, that's his prerogative. See above response for disclaimer.

Take care.

Josh

[Josh]

Hi
My name is Grant I'm the owner in Question

Hi, Grant. :)


Let me first state I don't beg or incentize clicks

Evidence to the contrary has been shown... I'll provide some again further down in this post.


I have no need to
At current time I have 28 sites total and not all are paid to read or click sites

I have no inkling as to what your other sites are, but if you don't need to beg for or provide an incentive for clicks, I really haven't seen that yet. You can take a look at the description I put together in my previous post, showing how "vital" they appeared.


Now out of all the content banners you see how many pay ?
Good question
I have them on the site to be seen and members to click if interested
now the company deceides not to pay or folds after a month or 2 well lets see
Wasted Time and space that could have beeen used for a more reliable party
I myself have clicked on things and bought and used the items I clicked on
Mad mailer ,send ads,generator html,buy scripts
to name a few

I'm not sure which network's links you were using to make those purchases from, I do know that Bidvertiser does not allow a publisher to click his own links, under any circumstances:

"How can I insure that my account won't be terminated?

Don't click on your own BidVertiser ads.
Clicking on the BidVertiser ads on your own site for any reason is strictly prohibited. If you are interested in one of the ads, simply type the URL of the ad directly into your browser's address bar or login to your account and click "View" in order to see a preview of the ads."

That can be found inside the account page under the "How to avoid account termination?" link. Sorry for not having a direct link to it but it doesn't allow me to grab the URL.

About other networks, I'd have to look them up, as I've never been a member of the other ones that I noted on your site.

For added measure, that same page in the Bidvertiser account area also says:

"Don't ask or encourage others to click on the BidVertiser ads.
Asking or encouraging others to click on the ads for any reason, either directly or indirectly, is strictly prohibited. Using sentences such as "click the ads to support us", "visit our sponsors" or "please click the ads" will lead to account termination."

Sounds clear to me.


Now you were talking ad brite as far as I know they don't pay for the clicks
most of the banners you see are paid to view
Now if you click fine if not fine also

You may be right about clicking and not clicking both having the same results. The only difference is that they both are not fine, per AdBrite's terms (my emphasis):

"If Subscriber is a publisher, Subscriber shall not, and shall not authorize or encourage any third party to (i) generate fraudulent impressions of or fraudulent clicks on any advertisement."

Chances are they say that because they pay you for those impressions, and their advertisers pay them. I doubt AdBrite and its advertisers want to shell out money for repeat impressions by the same user, hour after hour, day after day, week after week, and month after month. In fact, they say that you should not "authorize or encourage" that exaggerated accumulation of impressions.


I just got rid of bid viser because they said I was making incentive clicks
well lets put this to test
40,000 page views where there links were at lot of views
100 clicks hmmm interesting
If I was begging or making incentive clicks from a site that has a member base of 2000 with a click rate of 85% I think the click thrus would be alot more

Before their ads turned to what I consider complete rubbish (like e-gold games and autosurfs), I used Bidvertiser for almost a year. As I've also used other similar systems, and some different ones, I can tell you that Bidvertiser is one of the most lenient you will ever find, hands down. If you were banned from their publishing service for having incentive clicks, there's a roughly 99.97% chance that you did have incentive clicks.

Note that, yes, even to Bidvertiser, the one who values your traffic over the quality thereof, the following statements are incentives to click (my emphasis):

"But you see all the banners and text ads on home pages they are there to earn with
If every one would search or do a click which is your right you don't have to
we'd all be rich"

"Or you visit a site front page or ptp page look at the advertisers and give it a click doesn't hurt or take much time but builds the site earnings up so they can pay"

There are additional similar ones, but we've been over this email a few times already, and those should suffice as examples of direct incentives for readers to click on the ads.

As for the 85% clickthrough rate, I know you're intelligent enough to realize that no site will get 85% on ads such as those, even with providing incentives. Banner or text ads on a page of your site are not even comparable to paid emails or clicks that simply sit there and wait for members to click through. The stats are not even based on the same possibilities.

You have to consider a number of factors: non-members who haven't read that email visiting the page, members who don't want to follow your requests for clicks visiting the page, members who didn't pay attention to the email reading the page, members who clicked once or twice but don't feel like clicking every single time[i] visiting the page, members who click on one of the [i]other various ads (thus moving to a new page, giving you an impression on the ad in question but not an opportunity for a clickthrough), etc.

As you can see, it would be quite possible to have below 1% clickthrough rate and still be incentivizing clicks.

On top of that, regardless of the numbers, since when did poor results equal a lack of a true effort to receive "better" results? I don't quite follow that train of thought.


Ok that email was ent to answer Questions people asked
Why all the POP ups and pop unders?
Why all the flashing banners and site links?
Theses are some questions I'm asked all the time
I get webmasters that are new and want to know why all the banners
what I should say sorry buddy figure it out for yourself

As I quite specifically mentioned in my first post, how many banner / text ads you place means nothing to me. It's how you use, or abuse those ads, that I care about.


And for you nominating me for ban thats all good I know me and my soul
so I make no excuses or defend my actions maybe my words are not as articulate as you think they should be I am sorry
I never said I was a writter
Thanks for your time all
Grant

It's all right, I'm not always the most articulate, either. The point is that requests for clicks and suggestions for clicks aren't allowed by these networks and their advertisers, for legitimate reasons which have already been covered. I don't think you made a mistake in wording, because, first of all, as far as I'm concerned you write well enough, and secondly, the topic was covered over and over again with examples detailing how important the clicks were to the continued existence of the site and the flow of cash to pay members.

Aside from this post to you, some of my other concerns were noted in my post above, to marissas. I'll be writing one more post after this to cover another topic. I apologize for having to split it up but it will clarify the separation of topics that way, and will make sure that each one receives the attention it deserves.

Thanks for reading. Have a good evening.

Josh

[Josh]

Grant,

Thank you for getting through the other posts. This one will be much more concise.

Although both you and marissas have responded with a few posts now, covering most of what was originally mentioned, the discrepancy in referral rates which was found has not been touched. In case you didn't see it in the opening post, this is a screenshot that I took of the FAQ (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrref1.jpg), and here is one of your runner page on the script detailing commissions (http://online-fraud.com/images/ss/kittensptrref2.jpg).

Your FAQ claims that the site's rates are 20%, 10%, 5%, 3%, 2% and 1%.

The script actually rewards members with 10%, 5%, 4%, 3%, 2% and 1%.

Just a few moments ago I checked again, and neither page has been corrected.

This means members and potential members who may be looking for referrals will be earning on some levels as little as half of what they are told to expect. Why did this begin in the first place? Why has it not been corrected after being pointed out? Are we to expect it to continue?

I will await your response.

Take care.

Josh

[parthaaru]

Josh, thanks for your suggession, but the owner has been so far honest to us. I think it is too harsh to propose directly to boycott an honest site, without proper discussion. I think it would be better that we have first discussed the thread with some other relevent subjectline rather than the present one.
I believe everything can be sorted out just by dialouge.
They are paying their member right through so they deserve some respect.
hope everyone reading this article should understand that to err is human, and I think the honourable admin kittensptr should get time to clear all the alligations.

Be patient and soft. Please;;;;;;;;;;;;:)

[Josh]

and I think the honourable admin kittensptr should get time to clear all the alligations.

That's all I hope he'll do. :)

They are paying their member right through so they deserve some respect.

Do you have any referrals? They're not paying the right amount of commission for those...

Josh

[Josh]

As of now, all mention of the referral commission rates has been removed from the FAQ. I'm not sure what this means, because current members will probably still assume it's the same rate they were told before (unless they happen to check the script, which I'm not too sure that many do). New members, as far as I can tell, won't see any information about referral rates on the actual pages of the site.

Maybe he's fixing something up though. Let's hope so. :)

Josh

[wolf401]

ok thank you for the support
Yes I didn't realize it was on the facts page
and yes it is removed
I send emails to tell what the levels are and
they are
10,5,4.3.2.1.

There is a good reason why there not posted

10,000 dollars worth for 180 days that was froze
so now if you look at all my sites ther not listed on the front page
of course I can do like many others and take it down to 1 level at 20% which is a savings to me
But then what is the sense to promote

I don't hide itr to rip the members off if they look in the members area they see the levels

Its just that the internet Gods in there wisdom see PTR and PTC as MLM which as you and I know there not

My self even though I'm in the ptr and ptc business I would advertise this wya
Because
You get the clicks you pay for
people see what you have to sell
granted as you pointed repitition of the same sites over and over but say that person didn't really see it all the first time hey maybe the third or fourth time seeing it they go and lookMight not be my site but some someone is selling it also so they made the commission on it now
The advertiser is happy = Sale
the promoter is Happy = money
the buyer is happy = Product
I'll tell you right now my sister is an Ebayer and dhe was just advertising local
now I sent an ad World wide it increased here bids 10 fold

She had a complete Star Wars set that she sold to England for 275 dollars
cost a little shipping but big deal compared to what she made that way

Now not to long ago I'm a big Buffy fan at Kmart they had the seasons for 19.99 good price now what a guy in England offered was 95 dollars now that was crazy

So PTR and PTC does have there place I adree that there are alot of programs that have taken off with the money and lies of big cash

I don't tell anyone that ptr andd ptc is hard
now why do I do this and not make a whole lot hmm
Lets see
I have one lady that every time I pay her I get a card and she is so happy
Now something like that is priceless to me as a memory

And for the ones that belong to all my sites and make 50 to 100 a month there supplementing there income a little

so if I over look things I'm sorry let me know I will do my best to correct it
as I see this is a joint venture between the webmasters and the members
I get mail all the time of cheaters tring to cheat me from honest members which is great they are looking out for me and the site

Ok I'm done lol hope I explained some things if you want a reason why they are removed PM me I will tell you

Thanks
Grant

[Josh]

Hi Grant,

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time today so I'll only have a chance to cover this part.

I joined your site on June 24. Did the mail go out before that, because I didn't get one telling me what the levels are. Maybe you sent it out before then, but your response came afterward, so I'm not sure.

Where in the member area does it show the referral levels? I don't see it on the main member page. I don't see it on the referral tools page. I don't see it on the downline page. To be honest, I don't see it anywhere, not even in the terms.

That brings me to another question. Do you have a link to your terms of service? Quite honestly, I don't see one. The only reason I could find your terms was that I know the standard location of the document on cash crusader sites.

Being a webmaster of 20-some sites, I'd think you'd know the legal necessity of having a link to your terms.

What about a privacy policy? I couldn't find a link to that, either - although I did read it by typing in the address manually, again.

Isn't that a CAN-SPAM violation since you send commercial emails?

On the same note, why no postal address or link to one on each page? It isn't on any page that I've seen.

So basically, you want to go against PayPal's terms, but you don't want PayPal to know. To be honest, though, there is a lot on the site that PayPal doesn't like, aside from the referral levels.

I know that PTR is not MLM? That's strange, because I actually know that it is. Not all MLMs are illegal though, they're just given a blanket ban by PayPal for protection.

Look at it this way and you'll understand how it is. You (as a PTR member) are selling your clicks for a penny, or 1/4 of a penny, or whatever. You're not earning enough, though, so you decide to recruit some others who will sell their clicks for 1/4 of a penny, and in turn render commission to you. Then, they decide they need to recruit some others to sell their clicks as well, and being a multi-level-marketing program, you earn something off of those sales two levels below you.

That's just a basic illustration but I hope it makes sense. I apologize that I don't have any more time now.

Take care.

Josh


ok thank you for the support
Yes I didn't realize it was on the facts page
and yes it is removed
I send emails to tell what the levels are and
they are
10,5,4.3.2.1.

There is a good reason why there not posted

10,000 dollars worth for 180 days that was froze
so now if you look at all my sites ther not listed on the front page
of course I can do like many others and take it down to 1 level at 20% which is a savings to me
But then what is the sense to promote

I don't hide itr to rip the members off if they look in the members area they see the levels

Its just that the internet Gods in there wisdom see PTR and PTC as MLM which as you and I know there not