BGPaymail

[ianh]

paypal no longer payment option

looks like this one is falling apart

no paypal
late payouts
wm that does not answer mails
wm that does not keep members informed

[transcom22]

BGPaymail is certainly a mad-house with an attempt always to create a larger than life image of the webmaster.

I have been a member since october last year, been paid twice and then suddenly my name was deleted. I wrote to the "Beloved Webmaster"(thats how Bill is referred to) and after a month I received a reply "Explain why so many wrong Turing numbers". Frankly, I am aware not aware if there were many wrong Turing numbers, and I wrote back. I received a prompt reply that Turing numbers are fine and I could rejoin if I wanted.

Now, this is something crazy. Firstly they delete my membership, grab my earnings, and then ultimately find out that there was nothing wrong and I have to start from again. There was not even a wrod of apology for the mistake they had commited.

That's about BGPaymail...good site in the sense pays genuinely but run by a webmaster who fancies himself as a Godfather.

Whether the site is being closed down or falling apart is something that I dont know or would like to comment about.

[bellestraker]

In this mornings email he explains about his problems with paypal and also asks that the "detractors of BG" remove themsleves.

They delete any forum posts which ask questions they do not wish to answer and publicly include in their emails a verbal spanking for those who speak out ...and now he asks that the "detractors" just remove themselves... ( Must be too much work keeping everyone quiet)

However...I think that whoever reported him to PP is wrong too.( unless it was dealing specifically with a PP issue which does not include late payments or general gpt problems)

So many people advise reporting to PP as one of the "things to do" when you are angry at a PO and I just dont understand it.

Why? What is paypal going to do about it? They are not a collection agency and all they will do is close the account ( along with a few other gptr's just for good measure)

IMO..the only reason I can see to report to PP is revenge. I can understand reporting to the BBB etc. but so many seem to go for PP ( probably because it hurts the most ) Kinda sad...

One good thing about BG...IMO he just may be the one to make PP sit up and take notice. Its just unfortunate that it was brought on like this.

Belle

[bellestraker]

BGPaymail is certainly a mad-house with an attempt always to create a larger than life image of the webmaster.

I have been a member since october last year, been paid twice and then suddenly my name was deleted. I wrote to the "Beloved Webmaster"(thats how Bill is referred to) and after a month I received a reply "Explain why so many wrong Turing numbers". Frankly, I am aware not aware if there were many wrong Turing numbers, and I wrote back. I received a prompt reply that Turing numbers are fine and I could rejoin if I wanted.

Now, this is something crazy. Firstly they delete my membership, grab my earnings, and then ultimately find out that there was nothing wrong and I have to start from again. There was not even a wrod of apology for the mistake they had commited.

That's about BGPaymail...good site in the sense pays genuinely but run by a webmaster who fancies himself as a Godfather.

Whether the site is being closed down or falling apart is something that I dont know or would like to comment about.


I liked your descriptions and they are certainly fitting...Many seem to "love" this webmaster but the depth appears to be based on how big the bonus.

I have read so many " I love Bill. He is wonderful and he has given me so many bonus's and helped me so many times and I have been paid far more than I earned. etc. etc.."

In any case...I am sorry about your account being "lost" and also hope that he is able to get his PP account back.

Belle

[freecashspace]

IF he broke Paypal's rules, why should he get his account back?

I don't know if he broke them or not. If he didn't, he wouldn't be the first to have their account frozen unfairly. On the other hand, there are also plenty of PTRs who are violating Paypal's UAP, so it's not surprising that sooner or later, some of them get caught. In his email, he said:
It makes me very sad to write these few words. As You may be aware, BGPayMail will no longer be using the services of PayPal. Unless they apologize.

There were few people that for whatever reason, complained to PayPal about BGPayMail.

And, of course, some nincompoop there decided that I am an MLM, Pyramid or a Ponzi scheme and when challenged by me, they reverted to a User Agreement Violation addressed to a wrong person.:)

I am still challenging anyone to show a shred of evidence of my belonging to any program, site or anything, anywhere, that resembles any of the above. Including and MAINLY PayPal.

PayPal is not any kind of Institution, be it Governement, Financial IRS or Taxman, and certainly not an Internet Watch dog, except a busybody into Your affairs, (if You let them, that is), they are just a simple payment processor services provider that is funded by You.

Did compile some statistics about their jackboot treatment of the common woman and man doing their business on the Internet. Wonder, why so many millions bowed to that treatment.

So, who in the world has given them the authority, under any law, to ask, or do anything besides what they are offering to do?Given that BGPayMail only has 1 referral level, and it's free to join, I'm not sure how it could be considered a MLM, pyramid or ponzi, as defined in Paypal's AUP. On the other hand, it does advertise such programs, so if those ads are paid for using Paypal, then I suppose Paypal might decide to freeze his account.

Rod says he's talked to Paypal reps several times and they've made it clear to him that if Paypal is directly involved in the purchase of ads that violate their rules, they will take action. Is that what happened with BGPayMail? I dunno. Maybe.

Take a look at the BGPayMail site and it looks like he's running ads for various "investment" scams. Here are some screenshots:
screenshot1 (http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6195/badad15zm.jpg)
screenshot2 (http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6708/badad21xa.jpg)

Another possibile reason why Paypal has taken action against BGPaymail and other PTRs could be based on section 7.2 of their User Agreement.
7.2 Restricted Activities. Your Information and your activities (including your payments and receipt of payments) through our Service shall not: (a) be false, inaccurate or misleading; (b) be fraudulent or involve the sale of counterfeit or stolen items; (c) consist of providing yourself a cash advance from your credit card (or helping others to do so), (d) be related in any way to gambling and/or gaming activities, including but not limited to payment or the acceptance of payments for wagers, gambling debts or gambling winnings, regardless of the location or type of gambling activity (including online and offline casinos, sports wagering and office pools); (e) violate PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy; (f) infringe on any third party's copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other property rights or rights of publicity or privacy; (g) violate any law, statute, ordinance, contract or regulation (including, but not limited to, those governing financial services, consumer protection, unfair competition, antidiscrimination, or false advertising); (h) be defamatory, trade libelous, unlawfully threatening or unlawfully harassing; (i) be obscene or contain child pornography; (j) contain any viruses, Trojan horses, worms, time bombs, cancelbots, easter eggs or other computer programming routines that may damage, detrimentally interfere with, surreptitiously intercept or expropriate any system, data or other personal information; or (k) create liability for us or cause us to lose (in whole or in part) the services of our ISP's or other suppliers. If you use, or attempt to use the Service for purposes other than sending and receiving payments and managing your account, including but not limited to tampering, hacking, modifying or otherwise corrupting the security or functionality of Service, your account will be terminated and you will be subject to damages and other penalties, including criminal prosecution where available.I've bolded a few of the relevant possibilities. In the case of BGPaymail, I'd say they might fall under a and g if he's not making payments within the timeframe agreed to in the Terms of Service.

Other PTRs could be violating d if they've got or advertise other sites that have any raffles, bubbles, heads-or-tails, or any other games of chance. Quite a few sites have been designed with little regard to things like copyright and trademark (f), so it wouldn't surprise me if some got busted by Paypal for that sort of thing. And lots of sites, particularly those with PTP options, seem to have difficulties keeping their sites clean of all the nasties Paypal says aren't allowed in j.

So to be honest, it doesn't particularly surprise me when a PTR owner gets their Paypal account frozen. I do accept that Paypal's enforcement practices are a bit screwy, and that they make mistakes way too often. But how sorry should we feel for POs that lose their Paypal accounts when they are in fact breaking Paypal's rules? Especially when they've known for a long time now that Paypal will take action, yet they don't seem to have bothered to make sure their sites are 'clean' according to Paypal's rules?

Bill is right about one thing in his little rant against Paypal -- Paypal only has the power that we, the users, give them. And when we agree to their rules, we're giving them a lot of power over the money in our accounts. Just like POs have a lot of power over the earnings in our PTR accounts. I think it's kinda funny that so many POs get bent out of shape at the way Paypal treats them, but they don't see how it's often very similar to the way the POs treat their members.

And for those who are wondering, no I didn't turn BGPayMail into Paypal. Paypal's enforcement squads are a little too overzealous and random for my tastes these days.

Cheers,

Wil

[bellestraker]

IF he broke Paypal's rules, why should he get his account back?

I don't know if he broke them or not. If he didn't, he wouldn't be the first to have their account frozen unfairly. On the other hand, there are also plenty of PTRs who are violating Paypal's UAP, so it's not surprising that sooner or later, some of them get caught. In his email, he said:
Given that BGPayMail only has 1 referral level, and it's free to join, I'm not sure how it could be considered a MLM, pyramid or ponzi, as defined in Paypal's AUP. On the other hand, it does advertise such programs, so if those ads are paid for using Paypal, then I suppose Paypal might decide to freeze his account.

Rod says he's talked to Paypal reps several times and they've made it clear to him that if Paypal is directly involved in the purchase of ads that violate their rules, they will take action. Is that what happened with BGPayMail? I dunno. Maybe.

Take a look at the BGPayMail site and it looks like he's running ads for various "investment" scams. Here are some screenshots:
screenshot1 (http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6195/badad15zm.jpg)
screenshot2 (http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6708/badad21xa.jpg)

Another possibile reason why Paypal has taken action against BGPaymail and other PTRs could be based on section 7.2 of their User Agreement.
I've bolded a few of the relevant possibilities. In the case of BGPaymail, I'd say they might fall under a and g if he's not making payments within the timeframe agreed to in the Terms of Service.

Other PTRs could be violating d if they've got or advertise other sites that have any raffles, bubbles, heads-or-tails, or any other games of chance. Quite a few sites have been designed with little regard to things like copyright and trademark (f), so it wouldn't surprise me if some got busted by Paypal for that sort of thing. And lots of sites, particularly those with PTP options, seem to have difficulties keeping their sites clean of all the nasties Paypal says aren't allowed in j.

So to be honest, it doesn't particularly surprise me when a PTR owner gets their Paypal account frozen. I do accept that Paypal's enforcement practices are a bit screwy, and that they make mistakes way too often. But how sorry should we feel for POs that lose their Paypal accounts when they are in fact breaking Paypal's rules? Especially when they've known for a long time now that Paypal will take action, yet they don't seem to have bothered to make sure their sites are 'clean' according to Paypal's rules?

Bill is right about one thing in his little rant against Paypal -- Paypal only has the power that we, the users, give them. And when we agree to their rules, we're giving them a lot of power over the money in our accounts. Just like POs have a lot of power over the earnings in our PTR accounts. I think it's kinda funny that so many POs get bent out of shape at the way Paypal treats them, but they don't see how it's often very similar to the way the POs treat their members.

And for those who are wondering, no I didn't turn BGPayMail into Paypal. Paypal's enforcement squads are a little too overzealous and random for my tastes these days.

Cheers,

Wil


I was just thinking of what he had said the reason for closing his account was but you are correct....that does not in any way mean that is the only reason...

I just think that PP is far too whimsical in how they deal with peoples accounts and personally I would like to see them taken to task and made to explain exactly and clearly what the rules are.

Most people ( including me) either can not ( or do not) really test their rules and so they continue to get away with being the unofficial headhunter for whatever they decide is undesirable with anyone using their accounts.

So many people are breaking PP rules but I think PP is also becomming almsot godlike in their rush to "protect themselves" or make sure their rules are followed.
ETA..Of course they have the right to demand that people follow their rules but I mean...the rules which are badly defined and seem to change frequently.

I wonder how hard they really check things out and we know that there is no consistency in most decisions they make.

At this stage there is not much competition so I guess we can just hope for the best and see what the future holds.

Belle

[ianh]

i dont really feel that sorry for bill as for to long now he has been treating a lot of members like dirt

he often pays out of terms( unless you are one of the select few ) there are reports of members waiting up to 6 months to get payment from this site
i find his emails can be very rude
if some members ask reasonable questions he belittles them in emails

its about time that this po was brought back to earth he appears to have been getting away with things for to long

thanks to freecashspace

i was unaware that late payouts were an offence in pp terms

[dcwike]

The few people waiting over 30 day period for payouts and complaining are people who's accounts are not in good standing. They have not read, or misunderstood the TOS.

And, yes, the TOS of PayPal are rediculous, don't you think? I mean, why even accept PTR programs for processing money if anything they do violates PP TOS, if PP interprets it as such?

I mean, come on. it's evident PayPal wants our business, right, be we webmasters OR members of PTR.

Don't get me wrong. I KNOW of government regulations pertaining to Internet Payment Processing Companies. The MAIN concern of the government is money laundering, fraudulent credit card processing, which is mainly conducted by drug dealers and persons committing fraud.

Gambling Programs can easily be run by money launderers and they do, indeed, attract people who do steal credit cards. MLMs and Ponzis ARE fraudulent ways to obtain money.

But, come on. Investments programsand silly 'surf' programs that are just trying to find ways for making money without any intentions of actually ripping people off?

PayPal has needed to be put in their place a long time ago. And, in a sense, it's a blessing in disquise that someone reported BgPayMail. LOL. Maybe, just maybe, they've picked on the wrong program this time, huh?

I don't "love" Bill because of the many bonuses I "earned." Nor is that the reason I brag about him or his program.

I love Bill and brag because it's the BEST PTR PROGRAM out there.

It's so unlike other PTR. You actually have the opportunity to get somewhere if you READ and PARTICIPATE. AND, it's there for those who prefer to blind click if they so choose.

And, you know, it's a tit for tat thing. Even in treatment. Be rude, be treated rudely, in return. It's not about money for me. PTR is about having fun learning or being entertained in your leisure, and, who knows, maybe even earning a few pennies in the process from PTR.

If it wouldn't be for Bill's enthusiasm in helping advertisers obtain their goals, many PTR programs would have been stifled in memberships. I've gotten most of my referrals from advertising other PTR programs at BgPayMail. And, because of that, and the members' honest efforts in participation in them, I have reached payouts much faster.

Bill has a very unique method of teaching, those who want to learn, the art of teamwork and reciprocation it takes to make it in PTR - or any business. It is those who do not see this that are the ones who complain.

[bellestraker]

How many people have access to BG accounts. You are the 2nd person in the last 24 hours who seems to have inside knowledge of what people do ( or dont) with their accounts.

Is this a normal practise at BG?

Regarding the last part....If Bill wants to teach a course in good work practises through team participation maybe he should start a site with that as his theme.I have been with BG since the beginning and it has always been my understanding that this site is a gptr.

Belle





The few people waiting over 30 day period for payouts and complaining are people who's accounts are not in good standing. They have not read, or misunderstood the TOS.

Bill has a very unique method of teaching, those who want to learn, the art of teamwork and reciprocation it takes to make it in PTR - or any business. It is those who do not see this that are the ones who complain.

[dcwike]

I say that because some of the people who have complained brought it up in bgpay forum - many times (before, when we could post and help them understand - as many of "them" could hardly speak English). Some don't understand what "personal" earnings are, and that such does not include earnings from downlines or bonuses. But, most who complained in the forum, just plain didn't read the TOS.

And, when a few of them tried to pull the wool over our eyes, Bill DID come in and show proof and explain why they weren't paid.

You know how it is in this realm, Belle. There's not a PTR program out there where EVERY member reads tos and there are those who cry because they didn't follow the rules and didn't get paid.

Bill is NOT your ordinary webmaster, NOR is his program the NORMAL PTR site - yet, it IS in that catagory.

So be it if he wants to teach, using a mere PTR program. If you like the way a webmaster runs his show, remain a member. But, if you don't, don't go bashing it because of it, or tell him how or what he should do to change it to make it what it is.

I don't join PTR programs that mostly run PTP ads. Not that I'm against them - I have a very slow dial up ISP and the many downloads at one time freeze my PC. But, I don't go bashing them because they run PTP, do I? I give them the same respect they deserve as BgPay does.

I'm a member of varied PTR programs. Some because they have good redemptions for ads, others because it's easy to reach payout, and, yet others for their games and fun. Yeah, I joined bgpay thinking it was the same ole, same ole, but, boy did I find out different. BgPay sparks my curiosity and makes me think and learn things. I like that. Other's don't. So be it.

But, to come in here and GPF with little grounds but a few late payments to some, or now, what with the PayPal issue, is little more than nit picking.

Now, IF the program didn't pay the majority of it's members for months on end, like others have done, then yes, it's time to complain and discuss. Or if there is a never ending lack of response from the webmaster, then, yes, come in here and discuss and complain.

It doesn't matter which program is discussed in either of these forums. Points are made, and legitimate, like yours, Belle, as far as PayPal and trying to keep the matter to the topic of discussion.

It goes both ways, and both ways should be respected for who they are and what they are. But, as with any complaint one reads, we must keep in mind the following:

Did the person complaining abide by the tos?
Did the person complaining even READ the tos?
Did the person who posted tell ALL of the story?
Does the person posting have a personal vendetta?

I can see BOTH sides in this issue.

Most times, if something get screwed up with payments - or ads, it can be ironed out with THIS webmaster easily by a polite note of inquery, and, at times, a little patience. I've been there with ads, but, not payments - because, with payments, I know he pays - always has, as long as the account is in good standing. But, even IF a payment gets over-looked, I know of people who politely wrote and questioned such, and within days, they were paid.

Oh yeah, I am a busy member at bgpay. I DO READ the forum daily, participate in guessing the gibberish, and support the advertisers and other members the best I can.

Yet, I DO see problems, make suggestions - even "complain," but, hey, nothing's perfect in this world, now, is it? So, don't take this to think I've put bgpay or Bill on a pedestol, or a think he's a god. I don't. All in all, he's just a person who happens to like what he's doing. He's an honest webmaster of a PTR with a different twist, that's all.

[bellestraker]

Donna. It seems you want to question what everyone else writes and yet IMO you deliberately spin any problem with BG to be either the result of a bunch of "them furiners" who cant speak or understand properly or else it is because members did not read the rules.

There is a small group of which you are a part who completely deny even the remote chance that anything could be wrong at BG.

No I do not believe all that is written in any complaint but nor do I believe all that is written by supporters either.


A perfect example of why the fact that a PO pays does not mean that everything is Ok....is shown by Cheri ( Beehive)

Another example..I am not sure if it was you or someone else who said that when members buy ads they get far more than they pay for.

That is not true either. SOME members may get much more than they pay for but when a statement is made that MEMBERS get more then later when these MEMBERS ask why they didnt....they are questioned about what they did wrong.

The same with delayed payments. On one hand the members are told that they must have not given correct info or have made some other error. On the other it is said that becasue Bill has a busy life it is not fair to expect him to make timely payments. Or of course the old standby...they weren't supportive.

If it is OK for Bill to be late because he is "busy"...is it also OK for every other PO?

I keep hearing Bill runs several businesses so that makes it OK. What about PO's who have children...is it Ok for them?

IMO BGPAYMAIL is one of the most glaring examples of the double standard that exists in gptr and I guess that is what irks me the most.

It is not said that Bill is busy "this " week or "this" month so maybe we can give him a bit of room. What comes across is that no-one has the "right" to complain because Bill is busy or the member must have messed up.

Many question why some members do not go to BG forum to get help and IMO this is one of the main reasons...They will simply be given a list such as you have in your post asking what THEY did wrong...or be told that Bill has to be given slack because he's busy.


We can all understand that stuff happens on occasion but when it becomes a steady diet then something is wrong.

Personally I dont care how busy his schedule is.He owns the site and if he cant run it....then he should close.


Belle

[dcwike]

I don't see any double standard, Belle. There are many programs that run into problems with payments being paid as expected. But, I can understand them because they are just normal people trying to make something work on the side.

A housewife with little ones under foot, or a single parent, trying to make an additional income. Things happen, people get sick, and, most of them can't afford to pay someone to run the show if they can't. Heck, I even know one who is married, and just trying to run a program for retirement savings.

Most webmasters are honest, now days, thanks to this forum. The scammers are being kept at bay, as best they can, and we've learned how to detect scams before joining and wasting out time.

No, PTR is not perfect. Mistakes are made, by every honest webmasters - and, things DO happen. But, as with most honest webmasters, late payments get caught up, and things return to normal - and, usually within the tos.

Yes, we've learned about the Cherri's, who USE these very reasons to their own advantage to cover up their own mistakes. Yes, some do lie. But, the honest one's are up front - either you accept it, be patient, or be skeptical and get out.

So far, here, I've seen 2 complaints - not of not being paid, but, for being paid late. Not for lack of response, but, for being treated rudely - which, again, is a tit for tat thing.

So what if Bill is busy. At least he tells you in advance that he will be - and, often times, even privately, he responds to personal emails saying such. So have other honest webmasters.

So, where is this double standard? If it's ok to understand other honest webmasters, why not this one? They ALL work on the problems, and work out the solutions with their members.

I just think y'all are jumping the gun, here. Payments ARE being made, via other payment processors, or by check in the mail. Bill DOES have the funds. Payments are being slowed only when he is busy, or when, like other webmasters have experienced, PayPal has a "just cause" for freezing a program's account.

Look at the programs who had problems with Moneybookers, even StormPay.
They had to ask members to either change processors to PayPal or eGold, or they would find other means to pay members.

It all takes time, Belle, you know that.

And, as far as getting MORE out of our ads than paid for. Yes, most times we can only afford to buy ads to 100 or 500, and Bill sends paid ads to 250 and 800 or 1000. And, other times he does not, depending on the support his advertisers get.

Rest assured, it's all in the advertising stats. If an ad is sent to 500 and only 300 respond, then, yes, why should Bill send it to more if the number of members clicking are less than the amount of paid links?

And, it works the other way, too. If MORE members click on an email, even after it expires, Bill shows his grattitude for support by increasing the number of paid clicks to his members in future ads. He can do that where other webmasters can't, because he is willing to use his own money to do so. Why? because he can afford it and enjoys perking our curiosity and loves to see our thought process on the gibberish in his forum. And, because there are lessons to be learned.

BgPayMail does NOT depend on advertising to pay his members, yet, he will NOT put forth one paid ad unless an advertiser pays for one - either by redemption, or cash / credit card, through a payment processor. THAT'S what he's trying to teach webmasters of PTR. AND, how he's teaching members to work as a team with ALL PTR webmasters - not just himself.

For those who READ will come to understand that, eventually. For those who don't read, or could care less, well, so be it. It's their loss, not his.

It's not about the money with Bill. It's about making something work and, showing people HOW it works - if they are interested in learning - and, working together for the prosperity of all.

[bellestraker]

Donna

I think the reasons we are running around in circles is that you seem to think the only problem being spoken of is the late payment and actually in that one area...I also believe that eventually everyone will be paid.

However there are many others issues which have been posted about in the past two months or more ( some here and some at gpf) and it is the combination of all of them which IMO...should cause concern.

Belle

[dcwike]

Yes, there are "other" issues we are all concerned about, but, are they reasons to call for a boycott?

There are two sides to every issue, one of which I will not bring up for the sake of harmony, as we have each have different and opposing opinions of them.

But, too, there are issues with every PTR program - most, which do not have any bearing on whether a program should be shut down, or boycotted. I've seen enough of them in the GPF to know there is no resolution to them other than to agree to disagree. And, as with other programs, some of the issues seem to be similiar.

All I can say is if you are in disagreement with any honest webmaster on the way they operate their programs, then, you have a options. You can continue until you reach payout, collect, and unsubscribe; you can redeem for ads and, then opt out; or you can just quit the program, without collecting or redeeming your earnings. Simple as that.

But, as far as reporting any PTR program or advertiser out of spite, or belief, to the authorities of concern, keep in mind, that doing so only disrupts the progress of all PTR programs and advertisers, not just one site, or advertiser.

PTR programs are a means to pay people to read advertising. More and more entrepreneurs are using the Internet as a means of advertising and are examining and learning which methods work the best for them. PTR, among them. And, they all have different purposes for doing such.

As a past small business consultant myself, be it if I was asked how to increase sales, or how to reduce tax, the answer I would give them is to advertise. And, that is what the Internet is all about. Getting the word out - communicating to the world what you have to offer, or looking to find answers to whatever it is you need - be it information, products, new business ideas, shopping, a place to voice your opinions, even meeting people on line.

So, whatever business the entrepreur is in, being they are in affiliations or selling their own wares, and, whatever advertising methods they use, is their business, not anyone elses. If one method does not work for them, others will; be they through Ezines, Search Engines, game sites, or even in the realm of diversified PTR programs - ptr, ptp, surf sites, etc.

But, as long as we continue to nit pick to death honest PTR programs, PTR will be the last place anyone comes to advertise.

[freecashspace]

Bill advertises ponzi investment scams on the BGPaymail website. Paypal doesn't like ponzi investment scams. Paypal says so in its AUP. So I'm not really following how Paypal is the bad guy for freezing Bill's account.

Cheers,

Wil

[dcwike]

And, so do ptp sites advertise gambling sites and MLM - some even have porn pop ups. It's all a matter of time before PayPal either comes off their high horses or they will lose ALL PTR business.

Don't think it's a big deal? Think again. No, PTR is not PayPal's major source of income, but, we members of PTR, who use PayPal, give up quite a bit of chunk change for processing fees, don't we? PayPal isn't the only processing company out there. Competition is growing. It's to be expected.

Besides, why should PayPal give a crap what PTR advertises, as long as the PTR sites, themselves, are not a Ponzi or MLM? All THAT does is makes it easier for PayPal to keep control of their interests. Stricter regulations, less work to decipher where and who uses PayPal to obtain money from ponzi and MLM sites. Take note I said USE - not advertises or who receives money from the advertiser of such sites.

We, who PAY PayPal processing fees should demand that PayPal DO THEIR JOB and let US decide what advertisement we want or not want to see.

All advertising is is advertising. It does NOT mean that the advertising agency (PTR) is involved with ponzi or MLM scams.

If newspapers, grocery store flyers and TV media had refuse to accept money from beer brewaries for fear that the government would investigate them for contributing to the delinquencies of minors, think what would happen.

Much the same thing with PayPal. They are over - stepping their boundaries, and it needs to stop.

[ianh]

dcwike

i have read the tos and many times i have checked my details and all is correct
yes i did get my first payment and yes it was out of terms but i did not run to the forums and instantly report it

one late payment = benefit of the doubt

i have actually waited for my second payout ( now at 44 days ) hoping that bill would redeem himself and pay within terms
i would have then been here at the speed of light to repay the compliment with some praise for this site, however, i can not do this as i will not praise a site that even though they have payed me (so far on one occasion ) is out of terms.
that is not fair on potential new members

i will also admit that once he was out of terms on the second occasion i stopped all my ads

imo potential new members have a right to know these things

second out of terms = making members aware of these problems with this site


had i have had this info when i became a member then i would not have joined

all the posts and ads at that time praised this site and wm beyond belief and i really thought that i had fallen on my feet with this site

HOW WRONG I WAS

[freecashspace]

Sorry, you lost me. Bill advertises ponzi investment scams on the BGPayMail website. That's against Paypal's rules. Bill broke the rules. Bill got his account frozen. I don't see how other payment systems or PTP sites has anything to do with Bill breaking Paypal's rules.

Didn't you say earlier that Bill doesn't pay people that break his rules? That sounds to me like Bill takes his rules very seriously and expects them to be followed. I guess Paypal expects their rules to be followed as well. Bill didn't follow them, so they froze his account. They don't want to do business with Bill, even though it means they'll lose out on the fees. They processed $27 billion in payments last year. I guess they can afford it.

Paypal doesn't want to be involved in any way with MLM, gambling, porn, etc. I honestly don't think Paypal is going to change their minds on this. They're not going to "come off their high horses." Why would they want to? They're happy for people dealing in those sorts of things to take their business elsewhere. And that will include those PTRs who want to deal with porn, gambling, ponzi scams, etc.

Sure, there are other payment systems out there. I've looked at a lot of them and most aren't particularly good for PTR members. Usually because of the fees. But also because a lot of the ones that are willing to deal with payments involving things like ponzi scams turn out to be pretty shady themselves.

Again I ask, if Bill broke Paypals' rules, why is Paypal the bad guy for freezing his account?

Cheers,

Wil

[ianh]

this seems to be another issue with bill and his site all these posts supporting but no real answers

only that bill is wonderful

hang on was that an echo

bill is wonderful

huh yet to see it i am sorry to say !

[bluedahlia]

Besides, why should PayPal give a crap what PTR advertises, as long as the PTR sites, themselves, are not a Ponzi or MLM? All THAT does is makes it easier for PayPal to keep control of their interests. Stricter regulations, less work to decipher where and who uses PayPal to obtain money from ponzi and MLM sites. Take note I said USE - not advertises or who receives money from the advertiser of such sites.



Paypal used to fund gambling sites in 2001 and 2002 and were spanked pretty badly by the Federal Government. So I guess they aren't taking any chances.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-07-25-paypal-gambling_x.htm

And I guess MLM's and ponzi's can also be considered gambling. That explains why their AUP is what it is. It would be nice, however, if all the employees at Paypal were on the same page when it comes to the interpretation of their AUP.

[dcwike]

Yes PayPal DID get spanked pretty bad. But, that's because they allowed gambling sites themselves to have accounts with PayPal; which caused a lot of problems with government regulations: involving credit card fraud and, possibly money laundering being done by those who owned the gambling sites, or their clients, who used forged or stolen credit cards.

What we are talking about here, though, is simply advertising. Many of these gambling sites, Ponzis, and MLM owners are not the ones using PTR to advertise their business, their affiliates are - affiliates who are just looking for a way to make a few dollars in commissions for getting people to join the gambling sites, and so forth. Heck, the affiliates, themselves, probably don't even do any gambling themselves, but, have merely joined under the gambling sites' affiliation program.

To obtain commissions you have to sell something, right? To sell something you have to get out there and advertise the product, right?

You can be an owner of a store and sell beer, but, does that make YOU a beer drinker?

You can advertise a gambling site, but, does that make YOU a gambler?

So, as long as YOU or even the owner of any PTR are NOT using PayPal as a processor for gambling purposes, then, HOW can PayPal say you are violating their AUP?

All we are using PayPal for is a means to process money according to PayPal policy: in PTR, that's upgrades, paying / receiving money for advertising or payouts.

What is PayPal so afraid of? That the government will spank them again for allowing avertising agencies (PTR) to use their business?

That's like any TV station being too afraid to accept money from Budwiser to sponsor the Super Bowl because the government may spank them for contributing to under aged drinking.

Oh, I'm sure if any employee of PayPal allowed someone to open an account where Ponzis or gambling money would be processed, they'd be fired on the spot. Heck, even if an employee discovers a false report of such, you best believe, if they have the authority to do so, they'd freeze what ever or whomever's account that was reported before reporting it to THEIR autorities.

All Bill did was send an inquery to the wrong department authority when his account was frozen. And, that's why PayPal is still giving him a hard time.

But, even so, the question comes to mind as to how much authority are any of us willing to give up to run our businesses or how much control we want PayPal to have over our accounts.

If I am not allowed to advertise anything I want to advertise, then, why even bother using PayPal as a processor?

[hiredgoon]

SNIP

That's like any TV station being too afraid to accept money from Budwiser to sponsor the Super Bowl because the government may spank them for contributing to under aged drinking.

SNIP

But, even so, the question comes to mind as to how much authority are any of us willing to give up to run our businesses or how much control we want PayPal to have over our accounts.

If I am not allowed to advertise anything I want to advertise, then, why even bother using PayPal as a processor?

In the States are there not federal laws and regulations about gambling, ponzis, mlm's etc...? So wouldn't you think it to be a good thing that PayPal want to adhere to laws set out by government? This not only provides some regulation in that particular industry (casinos, lotteries etc...) but also protects and offers fair trading to consumers?

So you're happy for PayPal to be associated with directly, third party, fourth or fifth against regulations set out by the government, civil (sorry don't know what these state and city things are called in the US) councils etc... Because if you're saying you want to advertise anything you want and unhappy that PayPal want to stay legitimate would you be happy contributing to PayPal breaking the law if what you wanted to advertise broke a law or regulation?

Advertising agencies by the way have regulations and laws they must abide too also - I could tell you all about them but you keep referring to 'beer' and something that is not directly a crime which by the way can be but not in the manner that you use.

If you'd rather use an online processor that has no interest in laws or regulations and offers no legal consumer protection then why don't you use one of them?

[bellestraker]

Yes PayPal DID get spanked pretty bad. But, that's because they allowed gambling sites themselves to have accounts with PayPal; which caused a lot of problems with government regulations: involving credit card fraud and, possibly money laundering being done by those who owned the gambling sites, or their clients, who used forged or stolen credit cards.

What we are talking about here, though, is simply advertising. Many of these gambling sites, Ponzis, and MLM owners are not the ones using PTR to advertise their business, their affiliates are - affiliates who are just looking for a way to make a few dollars in commissions for getting people to join the gambling sites, and so forth. Heck, the affiliates, themselves, probably don't even do any gambling themselves, but, have merely joined under the gambling sites' affiliation program.

To obtain commissions you have to sell something, right? To sell something you have to get out there and advertise the product, right?

You can be an owner of a store and sell beer, but, does that make YOU a beer drinker?

You can advertise a gambling site, but, does that make YOU a gambler?

So, as long as YOU or even the owner of any PTR are NOT using PayPal as a processor for gambling purposes, then, HOW can PayPal say you are violating their AUP?

All we are using PayPal for is a means to process money according to PayPal policy: in PTR, that's upgrades, paying / receiving money for advertising or payouts.

What is PayPal so afraid of? That the government will spank them again for allowing avertising agencies (PTR) to use their business?

That's like any TV station being too afraid to accept money from Budwiser to sponsor the Super Bowl because the government may spank them for contributing to under aged drinking.

Oh, I'm sure if any employee of PayPal allowed someone to open an account where Ponzis or gambling money would be processed, they'd be fired on the spot. Heck, even if an employee discovers a false report of such, you best believe, if they have the authority to do so, they'd freeze what ever or whomever's account that was reported before reporting it to THEIR autorities.

All Bill did was send an inquery to the wrong department authority when his account was frozen. And, that's why PayPal is still giving him a hard time.

But, even so, the question comes to mind as to how much authority are any of us willing to give up to run our businesses or how much control we want PayPal to have over our accounts.

If I am not allowed to advertise anything I want to advertise, then, why even bother using PayPal as a processor?




This whole "Its OK for BG and here is why etc. etc.....when it applies to Bill" is getting a bit tiresome.

Where does that logic stop...It seems to me that what you are saying is that if Bill does not agree with the tos or rules of paypal then he shouldn't have to abide by them as long as he just advertises but does not indulge in whatever it is that may be illegal or against tos.


I am sure the creep running ads for child porno will be glad to know its OK as long as he doesn't watch it himself.If it applies for Bill...why not him?

I also checked out BG's forum again yesterday just in case things had changed and what I found were quite a few posts from members asking about their payout and why it was late.I can not swear that NO-ONE was responded to but I can say that the majority received no response.

I am sure you will say that "they" must have done something wrong...or maybe Bill talked to them privately as there always seems to be a reason why its OK for BG but the members are wrong.

I do believe that PP is far too big for its britches and there are a few sites whom I think have been targeted falsely but its hard to know if BG fits in that category or not...because either way ...it would be told that BG did nothing wrong and the member,paypal or whoever are attacking a good and wonderful man that everybody loves.Are you seriously saying that paypal closing his account was an error and then they got mad because he sent an enquiry to the wrong person so they are continuing to hassle him...

Poor Bill...He really does seem to attract a lot of erroneous complaints.


Have a good one

Belle

.

[dcwike]

Bill is no more perfect than any other webmaster running their business. Yes, I like the program, and yes, I do brag about how good a webmaster Bill is, but, that doesn't mean I agree with everything he does, or says. I've had my run ins with Bill myself - but, as far as paying his members, that he does, unless the account isn't in good standing, or there's an excess amount of requests being made - and one or two requests get lost in the process.

But, think of it this way. If you KNOW a webmaster is busy, or has some sort of problem with a payment processor, wouldn't it be respectful to hold off on requesting until the matter is resolved, or when the webmaster has more time to attend to payments?

When I was in the workforce, there were times when payroll's computers were down and paychecks couldn't be processed until the problems were fixed. People had to wait. Yeah, they were mad, but, they didn't go in there griping to the boss, did they? And, in the end, they did get paid.

Do not honest webmasters deserve the same respect? Especially when they have proved themselves to be an honest, paying webmaster?

Now, as to the point hiredgoon brought up, yes, ponzis and MLM, gambling are regulated by guidelines and laws here. But, what does that have to do with advertising? And, how would advertising an MLM affect PayPal if that particular MLM does not use PayPal as a processor?

Unless the laws here specifically say something cannot be advertised, it's not against the law to advertise it anywhere.

Take cigarettes in the US. for instance. Cigarettes are a legal commodity, but, they cannot be advertised on billboards, tv commercials, etc., because the tactics that were used were attracting and influencing children to smoke.

Now, that doesn't mean Ponzis and MLM are not border line illegal. They are. But, isn't that between the government and the Ponzi or MLM? And, it IS legal to advertise them. But, PayPal wasn't spanked because of Ponzis or MLM. They were spanked because they were making it easy for gambling casinos to launder money and casino clients to use stolen credit cards for the purpose of gambling.


What happened with PayPal is they got spanked, got paranoid, and created rediculous policies of their own.

Advertising is not against the law.

Also note that every agency has their own policy on what will be allowed and what won't. PayPal is entitled to that, to the extent where they can ban MLM or Ponzis from using their service. That's THEIR business. But, to ban a legitimate PTR program from advertising them is going too far. WHAT a PTR advertising business advertises does no harm to PayPal, whatsoever.

On one hand, PayPal welcomes the owners of PTR to use their services. They are legal, not MLM, or Ponzi. But, to have the authority to freeze their accounts on the basis of advertising such that does not even use PayPal as a payment processor is like saying, "Yeah, you can use my services so I can make money off the processing fees, but, you have to let me run your business."

Advertising porn is another story. I, myself, would not condone myself to being a member of a program that advertises them. Many PTR sites don't either. I've quit PTR sites that did condone it, just like I quit programs that advertised gambling. But, that's not a matter of law, it's a matter of preference - none of which has anything to do with PayPal.

PayPal is merely a payment processing service. Their only concern should be that the clients using their service are not illegal operations.

And, yes, Belle, PayPal can be as rediculous as to give you trouble if you take your concerns to the wrong departmental authority. Been there, done that and did receive an apology from them. :)

[bellestraker]

I give up...I honestly think that it does not matter what anyone says you will simply put a spin on it which makes it OK for BG to do whatever he pleases..

AND...I am probably doing the very same thing on the other side so it makes no sense to keep going.

It just seems strange that if BG makes a rule then it should be abided by WITHOUT EXCEPTION because BILL owns the site AND the member is responsible to familiarize themselves with ( and follow) every rule or face losing their accounts and earnings.

BUT..if Paypal makes a rule for THEIR business and it is not to Bills liking...then HE should not have to abide by it as who the hell are they to tell him what to do.( even though it is HE who is using their services.

I said earlier that I think PP has unfairly targeted some good sites and I would go to the wall in defense of them but with BG all I see is another double standard.

I realize you can spin this seven ways from Sunday so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Have a good one

Belle

[dcwike]

Here, it's no so much a matter of agreeing to disagree with the operations of Bill's site as much as it is the issue of the matter at hand - PayPal.

It's not JUST Bill who has the problem with PayPal. It's ALL of PTR. And us.

Yes, we agree to disagree - much appreciated and respected, Belle.

I stand behind ANY webmaster who's been given a raw deal behind the shananigans of PayPal.

Look at the ptp sites, the surf sites, who also allow advertisements from MLM and Ponzis. They're next, unless SOMEONE can put a stop to what PayPal does with PTR webmasters.

Sad thing is, I don't think there IS anyone who can do that-no, not even Bill. PayPal will always be there and do what they do until a better PP Service comes along - that's more fair to PTR business.

I worked for a magazine - sold advertising - and designed logos for local businesses. Yes, there are guidelines and policies, but, no matter who I sold advertising to, or what ad I designed within that realm, as long as it was not illegal, I was paid.

Thanks for the debate, folks.

Oh, by the way, Belle, lol, I DO watch the O'Riely Factor on Fox News Channel. Do you really think I'm spinning, here? Is it really fair for big business to butt into your affairs like PayPal does?

Wanna talk about phone companies that become monopolies in small towns? Or oil refinery companies that are gouging prices of gasoline?

[ianh]

just an observation amongst all the paypal issue

had bgpaymail or bill payed me promptly or within terms when i claimed then there would not be this issue

i claimed my payout on 23rd april well before the problems with pp

since the pp issue arrived on 1st june or there abouts
that is when it was reported at the bgforum and in an email 3rd june

and now if you want your money that you have earned he will according to an email and as i read it, will make sure that it is not worth the paper it is printed on i.e the check option

looks like its his way or the highway ( bit like paypal )

and this is a wonderful wm

i wonder what a bad one is like ( excusing the known scams )

[dcwike]

That's a fair observation, ianh. But, let me ask something.

Did you inquire about your request after 30 days (which would have been after May 23)?

Did you ensure that your account was in tact before your request - as in ensuring that $3 of your earnings were, indeed, "personal," not to include earnings from downline, or bonuses?

Has your request been denied, or did you see notice of a 50 cent dedution in your earnings stats for submitting an incorrect request?

Take a look at your earnings, ianh. If you don't see any deductions, and if you haven't bothered to inquire about it after 30 days, it's quite possible your request may not have been received.

However, if you DO see a deduction, and, have sent an inquiry about it, then that's the reason you may not have been paid or received response to your inquiry.

As like most webmasters, Bill will not answer questions where the answers can be found in the tos. However, he WILL respond to inquiries if they pertain to questions to help understand the tos.

I often send inquiries to webmasters about terms if they are not clear to me. And, most times, not just from Bill, I get a polite response with helpful information that helps clarify what I didn't understand.

This is not to say you don't read or understand, ianh. Nor does it imply that you may be dishonest, here. I don't think you are, from the way you are presenting your posts.

Trust me, I DO know how it feels not to be paid in this realm. Tasia's Paid Links and AYS taught me well, what it's like to have loyalty and sincere efforts be ignored when it comes to payouts. Or ignore inquiries if why I wasn't paid within the tos rules.

I received my first payout from Bill long before I participated in in the gibberish or posted in his forum, and I had no problems getting it. Heck, I thought all those weird things in the emails were just bad spelling and typos. :laugh: And, from the posts I saw in his forum at the time, I thought what they were discussing was way over my head. (a thread where a bunch of people were trying to decipher Bill's gibberish - though I DID post and said as much)

How I got involved was when I saw a poem posted in another thread (I dabble in writing poetry). I got brave, and posted an impromtu poem. Two days later I received an email, and was given my first challenge to decipher and earn a bonus.

But, that's neither here nor there. Irregardless of whether or not you participate in other areas, you did, indeed, do as expected to earn your personal earnings. But, other than what I mentioned above, I can't understand why you have not been paid. I DO believe you. I just don't understand.

[ianh]

thanks for your reply dcwike

this is not my first payout so i would assume that my details are on bill's database

yes there is the usual 50c deduction for a claim which i know happens until you get paid and then it changes to 30c after your payment has been done

my first payout i used the on site contact button got no reply so emailed the nothappy@bgpaymail address and yes i got paid and i have never denied that

this is now my second payout and i am sorry but i do not see that i should have to beg for this payment from bill he has my details and they are also correct on site he also has his database

my first payout was not denied and to the best of my knowledge i have followed the terms to the letter apart from emailing about this payout

as i have already said one payout benefit of the doubt. yes i also understand mistakes are made. however, this is my second payout these mistakes that happened or possibly happened in my first payout should have been rectified

had this have been the case then i would be here praising this site as i do for other sites that i am a member of ( you only need to look at the who's been paid here although i do praise at a lot of ptr forums when i am paid )

as you are probably aware i am a member of quite a few sites and some i do advertise whilst there are others that i do not i have my reasons which i wont go into now

i stayed with bgpaymail mainly because i thought this was a site that i could trust due to a lot of the advertising i mean by that that we all learn by advertising maybe not all good but we do learn first payouts can be a problem for many sites i understand, no problem i can deal with that and did not start posting that this site had not paid me

there is another site that i wont mention but a similar thing happened although i never got my first payout or my second for that matter and this site is now on the watch list here

this complaint is more about the present time there seem to be quite a few members having similar problems to myself

i do totally understand that bill has been an honest wm in the past but this is the present and i have yet to see some of that honesty which is a shame because this could damage what was possibly one of the best ptr sites in the industry

[dcwike]

thanks for your reply dcwike

this is not my first payout so i would assume that my details are on bill's database

yes there is the usual 50c deduction for a claim which i know happens until you get paid and then it changes to 30c after your payment has been done

my first payout i used the on site contact button got no reply so emailed the nothappy@bgpaymail address and yes i got paid and i have never denied that

this is now my second payout and i am sorry but i do not see that i should have to beg for this payment from bill he has my details and they are also correct on site he also has his database.........

my first payout was not denied and to the best of my knowledge i have followed the terms to the letter apart from emailing about this payout

as i have already said one payout benefit of the doubt. yes i also understand mistakes are made. however, this is my second payout these mistakes that happened or possibly happened in my first payout should have been rectified

had this have been the case then i would be here praising this site as i do for other sites that i am a member of ( you only need to look at the who's been paid here although i do praise at a lot of ptr forums when i am paid )

as you are probably aware i am a member of quite a few sites and some i do advertise whilst there are others that i do not i have my reasons which i wont go into now

i stayed with bgpaymail mainly because i thought this was a site that i could trust due to a lot of the advertising i mean by that that we all learn by advertising maybe not all good but we do learn first payouts can be a problem for many sites i understand, no problem i can deal with that and did not start posting that this site had not paid me

there is another site that i wont mention but a similar thing happened although i never got my first payout or my second for that matter and this site is now on the watch list here

this complaint is more about the present time there seem to be quite a few members having similar problems to myself

i do totally understand that bill has been an honest wm in the past but this is the present and i have yet to see some of that honesty which is a shame because this could damage what was possibly one of the best ptr sites in the industry

Ok, now I think I'm understanding a bit.

First, there is no "usual" 50 cent deduction. The "usual" deduction is 30 cents, a 10% fee for processing, which is returned by the 30 cent sign up bonus.

The 50 cent deduction is when improper requests are made, and it is deducted from earnings, and the request for payment is denied. Improper requests fall under

Requesting payment without having met the requirement of reaching $3 in personal efforts:

By that it is meant that $3 has to be earned by self effort - reading, clicking and reading the ads. Any referral bonuses or other bonuses are not to be included in that - not even the 30 cent sign up bonus.

So, in effect, personal earning - referral bonuses - the signup bonus must = $3 before you can request payout.

For example, let's say your "total" earnings = $7, but, of that your personal earnings only say you earned $2. That means you are not yet eligible to request payout.

It's easy to overlook the personal earnings when you see that $7. One assumes it's beyond the $3 and figure they can request payout.

You say you didn't have a problem with your first payout. So, what your problem appears to be is that your second payout request may have gotten lost in the system.

And, no, it would not be "begging" to inquire to see if your request was received.

Just explain that you've requested payout April 23, and have not yet received it. That you don't understand becuase you have received your first payout with no problems. Then, politely ask if they have received your request.

Although right now would be bad timing to do so. I'm sure Bill is receiving a lot of angry requests, as well as working on a resolution with PP. :( And, especially if you use PayPal as a payment processor.

Of one thing I am sure. You WILL be paid - even though you may think different. It's really sad that these things happen. And, I know how hard it is to trust PTR owners, but, I've been with BgPay since Oct of 2004, and, have never even had to request after the first time.

I didn't request after that because I was trying to save to upgrade, but, Bill beat me to it - paid me when I reached $10. I then wrote him and told him I was saving that for an upgrade. So, I asked if I could send it back and have it put back into my account. He accepted that, then gave me a surprise $10 in addition, and I used it to upgrade. From then on, I knew I could trust Bill.

[freecashspace]

Look at the ptp sites, the surf sites, who also allow advertisements from MLM and Ponzis. They're next, unless SOMEONE can put a stop to what PayPal does with PTR webmasters.If they allow advertising for MLM and Ponzi scams, then I can certainly understand why Paypal would choose not to do business with those people, and would prefer to close their accounts. Ponzi scams are illegal. Many (though not all) MLMs are illegal. To be honest, I don't understand why so many POs (whether they own a PTR, a PTP, a PTS or whatever) are happy to advertise for these sorts of scams. In many cases, the POs don't seem to care much about the legality or the ethics involved -- they'll send ads from anybody who can pay. Losing their Paypal accounts doesn't stop all of them, but it does seem to slow some of them down for a while. I wonder why so many people seem to think that's a bad thing?

Cheers,

Wil

[ianh]

the 30c bonus is a sign up bonus that already cancelled out on my first payout that is unless you get it for a second time which i very much doubt

when you claim a payout 50c is automatically deducted from you balance until your payment has been verified once verified you then get 20c of that 50c back

the 50c is on your summary until your payment is verified

i do understand the terms even though many may not

i also had over $3 in personal earnings without any bonuses

my first payout did run over time as well. this is how this thread started because it is now the second time that has gone past 30 days

to be absolutely honest it is now not a matter of money it is a matter of principal especially after the last few emails

i am not requesting any payment that i am not entitled to i have done my part and to the best of my knowledge played by the rules

it appears that bill is the one bending the rules even though they are his rules

[dcwike]

Keep in mind here that only two parties are involved in the advertising. The advertiser, and the the site that promotes incentivised advertising. PayPal is merely a payment processor which is used for the financial transaction.

Nobody's nobody's watch dog, nor should they be. I don't even know what a Ponzi sheme is, unless it's referring to a pyramid scheme. All I know is I am being paid to examine a site. If I like it, I join or make a purchase. If I don't I don't join or make a purchase, and collect the incentive.

Do you think members of PTR sites are so gullible that they can't see a program for what it is? And, :laugh:, most of us who DO PTR aren't out to "pay" for anything we see, unless, perhaps it's a candle site with pretty candles at a reasonable price - something tangible. I've bought candles, hand made soaps, etc., etc.

And, do you honestly think that, by now, most PTR members aren't aware, and forewarn others of the scams that are out there? I've learned a lot of that stuff from this very site.

Why NOT let the advertiser of these Ponzi schemes and MLMs learn for themselves just how crooked they are? Experience is a very good teacher, you know. Trust me, they won't be using much out-of-pocket expenses for long for advertising when they find it's not as easy to obtain the big money these programs promise.

Like I said, advertising is just that. Advertising. You do it in hopes that it will bring results. If it doesn't, then you quit advertising that particular program or product and, eventually quit the program or make no more investments in the product you advertised. You learn, cut your losses, and move on.

Look at Google, or any of the big search engines. Can you not find gambling sites or scams there, too? Why doesn't the government crack down on THEM for accepting money from advertisers advertising the same thing?

The Internet is the new wave of marketing. There are way more scams out there than what we see in PTR, believe me.

Advertising on the Internet is merely for the purpose of getting the word out - bringing traffic to your site and what you have to offer. Of course the purpose behind it is to get results, sales, perhaps only interest and inquiries, but, that doesn't guarantee that you will get them, does it?

Heck, you even see some of these programs advertised in newspapers and magazines.

Again, PayPal did not get spanked because they allowed transactions to go through their service for the advertising of the programs. PayPal got spanked because they allowed gambling sites to have accounts with them, and to use their service for illegal transactions - money laundering and/or credit card fraud.

Advertising is not against the law. Using payment processors as a service in transactions for advertising purposes is not against the law.

If PayPal is so skittish about it, then they should not allow PTR as a means to earn their own profits. Otherwise, disallow any PTR related accounts. Not *****foot around, accepting them as long as they don't advertise Ponzi, gambling, or even MLM.

[freecashspace]

Maybe you should contact Paypal with your suggestions, dcwike. You might try getting in touch with the President of Paypal, Jeff Jordan, and suggest that he stop doing business with all PTRs the way Moneybookers has. Or maybe try explaining the situation to Ryan Downs, the Vice President of Operations. Maybe he wasn't paying attention the day they taught 'Advertising Online Scams' at Harvard Law. Another way to go might be to explain your 'advertising is not against the law' theory to John D. Muller, Paypal's Vice President of Legal and General Counsel.

Maybe once you've explained to him that Paypal shouldn't discriminate against advertising and publishing companies that allow ads for illegal Ponzi schemes, pyramid scams, kiddie porn, or whatever else somebody might want to promote, legal or not. Maybe he'll see your point that Paypal (and law enforcement authorities) should go after the advertiser, but leave the publisher alone.

Maybe he'll agree that PTRs ought to be able to run ads for anything anybody pays them to advertise, just like newspapars, magazines, TV, billboards, etc. Hmmm...oh wait, all those media have advertising standards and regulation, don't they? Oh well anyway, maybe if you try going with your 'we don't know what Ponzi schemes are, but we're not gullible' argument, maybe they'll 'get off their high horses' and 'see the light.' Ya think?

Cheers,

Wil

[bellestraker]

Donna

Maybe I am just really tired but most of your post makes absolutely no sense.

It sounds to me as if you are trying to dump a few sentences to let us know how deeply yourself and Bg have been involved in the world of big business and then in the next breath you contradict anything that would show that.

You have been around gptr for several years and have been active in a couple forums that I know of..and you want us to believe that you do not know what a ponzi is??? ...Then you tell us that members are NOT gullible and would know right away if one was put in front of them.

Well I agree with you that most members are not dumb and I don't even think most are gullible but IMO any member who has been around for over a year and does not know what a ponzi is would not be gullible....they would be unconcious.

Then you go on to say that members should just learn by turning out the flashlight and stumbling around in the dark..but you claim that didnt work too well for you.

Just in case you still want to say you do not know what an hyip or a ponzi is..then I would STRONGLY suggest that you are not reading BG ads....

There have certainly been enough sent out by BG that you should be quite familiar with them and from the ad copy I would make an educated guess that those ads are not from outsiders....they are from old time BG members.

I don't recall for sure if any of those ads were yours...so I will just ask....Have you sent any ads for hyips or mlm's. If you are unsure then it might be wise to check it out as IMO it is THOSE ads which are playing a major part in BG's lost PP accounts and IMO THAT is unfair to this man who you all profess to care so much about.

Have a good one

Belle

[transcom22]

There is something more interesting about Bgpaymail.
I remember reading it somewhere in the forum, "Bill, pleez, pleez, send us your photograph. We all like to see how our beloved webmaster looks like"

Bill loves being an enigma and enjoys building an aura around himself. He isn't bad or malcious but he loves to play Godfather to the hilt and always be surrounded by "Yes men" and "Yes women". Notice, how there are such "Yes men" who are vociferously defending Bgpaymail...these people have so much insight into the working of this website (as if they are running the site). I have never seen Bill coming out to defend. If he writes in the forum, its like Moses enunciating the 10 commandments.

The point is who are all these Yes Men to come out and defend the website unless they have been commissioned or brainwashed.

I have been paid by Bgpaymail twice, and on time, and thus I have no such complaints about the site. But they deleted my membership and after a month realised it was a mistake and sent me a one liner that I could rejoin (as a new member). There was not a word of apology and my earlier earnings were wiped out.

I guess there is only one problem with the site administrators, who sincerely believe:

"I am OK but you are not OK".
A bit of transactional analysis may help the Bgpaymail administration.:laugh:

Best of luck to Bill and all his supportive Jack and Jills

[dcwike]

On the issue of payments with BgPayMail, I stand firm that all who have accounts in good standing will be paid.

No one PTR program is perfect. No honest webmaster is without flaw. No PTR program is without flaw. No member of PTR programs is without flaw.

Things happen. Emails get lost, programs develop glitches - nothing's perfect.

Either you trust a webmaster or you don't. Either you accept ANY webmaster's flaws, or you don't - and vise versa.

Compare the number of complaints against ANY PTR with the number of members they have, and there's your answer as to whether the program is worthy of your time. BgPayMail has over 11,000 members.

Most issues with most good PTR programs can be resolved simply by polite, business-like, correspondence. BgPayMail is one of them.

Now, on the issue of PayPal:

Keep in mind, that most PTR programs DO have their own policies on what type of advertising the will allow. However, not all Ponzis and MLM sites will disclose to the public that they are such. And, one person's opinion that they ARE such, differs from another's. So, I ask, is PayPal the lord of opinion?

Most all advertising is screened for viruses, porn, gambling site pop-ups, etc., by most PTR programs before the ads are processed. But, again, Ponzis and MLM sites cleverly disquise themselves as legitimate businesses and get through the system as such. But, WHO's opinion is the lord of all opinions?

So, here's the solution.

When a member, who sees a program advertised that (s)he thinks is Ponzi or MLM, report it FIRST to the webmaster, if that webmaster ordains not to allow such. More than likely, that webmaster will take a closer look at the site in quiry. If the webmaster agrees, he can remove it. If the webmaste does not agree, it stays.

The question is, does PayPal have a specific list of programs that they will not allow to be advertised? Perhaps, if they had such a list, there would be fewer problems with PTR programs and more cooperation.

The way it is now is like the witch hunts of the medievel times.

[Lia]

Let me see if I understand...

It is okay for a Program Owner to remove money from people's accounts because they didn't follow the rules. It is okay for a Program Owner to delete someone because they didn't follow the rules. It is okay to accept advertising for Ponzi's, Autosurfs etc because the member should know about things before they sign up or invest.

It however, is not okay for PayPal to have rules and expect a Program Owner to follow them? If the Program Owner does not follow the rules it is not okay for them to freeze their account? PayPals rules (AUP) are available to anyone who wants to read them. They are a business don't they have the right to determine what they want to be involved in? Therefore a Program Owner can do anything they want, just don't use PayPal.

When do you suggest someone start complaining? What percentage of Members not getting paid do you think should be required? What amount over terms do you think should be allowed?

*shaking head in disbelief*

Lia

[Merlin2307]

Lia, I must commend you. After reading both threads concerning BG and the sub Paypal gripes yours was the most direct,precise and to the point response. Bg violates its own TOS,a contract with its "independent contractors"/members by not paying with its own terms which is wrong. Be it one member or all 11,000 if the numbers are correct it's still wrong. Paypal is a business that controls ebay and the payment end of most of the transactions that go on in this cyber world called internet. Paypal has a published set of rules that is simple for anyone to understand. If you want to use paypal as a payment option you have to play by their rules,if not you have to take your business elsewhere. IE-egold,alertpay,moneybookers etc., but the question is this.....do any of these other programs look out for the average person as much as paypal in the fraud department.....NO I don't think so. JMO

[dcwike]

Ok, lol, let's get this straight.

First to belle:

If a program calls itself an MLM (most), a hyip, or ponzi, then, no, I won't join it nor do I think it should be advertised. But, as in most cases, such sites cover such actions with appealing banners and misleading information.

PayPal issue:

Many PTR webmasters do not know themselves which ads are which just by glancing at them and checking them for the usual viruses, pop-ups and so forth. And, unless it is brought to their attention that such and such a program IS such, they investigate no further.

So, what I am saying is, IF PayPal KNOWS which programs are which, why not produce a list of such programs that ARE ponzis, bad MLMs? I'm SURE if they clarified by giving examples (listing names of programs they would ban from being advertised), PTR webmasters would have NO PROBLEM abiding by such rules.

Heck, if a list was provided to us by PayPal, we could have them at hand and know which sites we could not advertise. Or, at least PTR webmasters could, so they could turn down ads that go against PP policy.

BgPayMail is not the only site that has ever failed to send payments within the tos. But, like most honest program owners, he lets you know in advance.

But, what do a lot of members do about it? Why, of course they keep on sending in more requests and over load the redemptions files even further. They send in more complaints.

Common sense tells me that if an honest webmaster is lagging behind in the processing of payouts, I should hold off on making requests for awhile. And, in this case, I wouldn't even have to hold off, as I've been paid most times, without requests.

Patience, trust, and allowing exceptions to the rules when circumstances arise, is what makes ANY business flourish - not just PTR or PayPal.

To avoid freezing accounts pending further investigation, PayPal should provide a list of banned sites to advertise. Would not PTR webmasters comply with the rules more if PayPal did that? Hell, I think even Bill would. And, too, it would prevent false accusations by someone with a personal vendetta against any PTR webmaster.

There are two principles to consider here:

1: Think before you accuse. Do all you can to rectify a matter with a PTR webmaster before coming here and complaining.

2: Expect the same consideration from a payment processor that you would expect from yourself - clarification of the rules by example. As in the case with PayPal, be specific by listing the names of the sites you disallow transactions for, for advertising. It could be as simple as saying do not use PayPal to advertise any programs that do not have paypal listed as a payment processor.

And, no, belle, I don't promote programs that do not have PayPal as a payment processor listed. I'm not a member of such, or affiliated with them in any way.

[Lia]

...

So, what I am saying is, IF PayPal KNOWS which programs are which, why not produce a list of such programs that ARE ponzis, bad MLMs? I'm SURE if they clarified by giving examples (listing names of programs they would ban from being advertised), PTR webmasters would have NO PROBLEM abiding by such rules.

Heck, if a list was provided to us by PayPal, we could have them at hand and know which sites we could not advertise. Or, at least PTR webmasters could, so they could turn down ads that go against PP policy.



I try to keep a list of banned sites, however, there new sites opening daily. Sites that are ok today are not ok tomorrow. If you provide a list then people say "it wasn't on your list". It is just not feasible for PayPal to have a list of sites.

I think they have a great description (list ?) of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. You just need to take the time to read it. It says very clearly that autosurfs and investment sites are not allowed. Yet they are advertised on lots of paid to sites.

We all miss an occasional ad, however, occasional is differnet than your site being full of them. Yes you can notify the program owner and hope they don't yell at you or refer to your ancestry in a demeaning way. I only do that for sites that havean occasional ad of that type.

Lia

[Esperanza]

I have to agree with Lia. Any responsible PO should know what is in PayPal's AUP. When PayPal updates their AUP they send out notifications to users and responsible PO's take care they get these and READ them.

So, what I am saying is, IF PayPal KNOWS which programs are which, why not produce a list of such programs that ARE ponzis, bad MLMs? I'm SURE if they clarified by giving examples (listing names of programs they would ban from being advertised), PTR webmasters would have NO PROBLEM abiding by such rules.

Heck, if a list was provided to us by PayPal, we could have them at hand and know which sites we could not advertise. Or, at least PTR webmasters could, so they could turn down ads that go against PP policy.

It takes less than $10 to buy a new domain name - nothing compared to the profit most of these scams make - so how could one possibly list thousands of programs first and then keep up with all their name changes?

PayPal's list is quite clear and I've looked it up for you as you've obviously haven't done so recently yourself:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside
and specifically this:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=rich_quick

The only problem with PayPal regulations is that some of their employees seem to have a problem understanding them. But that's another issue best left out of this discussion.

[dcwike]

Of all the sponsor links listed on BgPayMail, the screen shot showed but two that seems to be the culprit with PayPal.

So, instead of freezing his account, or any other webmaster's account for that matter, why did not PayPal, after it was reported, first inquire of the webmaster if they were aware that two sites listed on their PTR site violates PP's rules?

I'm sure if the matter was handled in that manner, any webmaster would look at them and remove them from the site. Probably even apologize for the over sight.

Why are people so quick to judge and accuse and obtain personal vendettas when they are caught cheating, or don't understand why they've been treated the way they were?

And, look at transcom22's post. To this day it's inexcusable to make a mistake in an account. Granted, if any earnings were not re-instated along with an invitation to re-open an account, it could be understood. Had that happened to me, I would have over looked the lack of apology, and replied, asking questions - and try to come to some sort of compromise.

And, thank you, lia, for the clarification on the thousands of sites that would have to be listed. I can now understand why it would be of no value to create a list. :)

However, be that not everything is black or white, could not PayPal, unless it is an immediate threat to their opperations, inquire before they freeze accounts?

[Lia]

It is against the law to drive 80 on a freeway that has a speed limit of 55. Should the police stop you and remind you of the speed limit? Sometimes they do and so does PayPal. They get your attention by limiting/freezing the account and when you abide by their rules you get your account back. We have seen it with numerous Paid To sites. Do Program Owners (usually) email someone and say you are showing up on my bot report, shame on you don't do that again, no they delete or suspend the account.

The problem in most cases is obvious. This is from PayPals site

You may not use PayPal to send or receive payments for any form of multi-level marketing programs (including online payment randomizers), as well as matrix, pyramid and Ponzi schemes, "get rich quick" schemes, “Autosurf” programs, High Yield Investment Programs (HYIP), or other similar ventures.

"Get Rich Quick" And Other Related Businesses
Get Rich Quick schemes include any type of self-employment, start-up businesses, or investment opportunity where the claims of profit or returns on investment are unrealistic or unsupported. By law, if a business opportunity costs $500.00 USD or more, the promoter is required to support any claims regarding earnings or profits with written documentation.

If Program Owners did not accept any autosurf, HYIPs, Bubbles, Randomizers, gifting, and other such programs they would be well on the way to complying. What is so hard about not accepting these types of ads?

Lia

[dcwike]

That sure leaves a lot to work with, doesn't it? Can't advertise this PTR site because they have a bubble game. Can't run that PTR site because they have a Randomizer advertisement on their site.

Yet, you can go to any search engine and see the same thing. What next? Is PayPal going to stop letting Search Engines use them as a payment processor?

And, look at some of the stuff eBay allows people to sell. How can they tell if some of the stuff that is being auctioned off isn't stolen? I've even seen sexualy explicit items up for auction there. Yet, there's no questioning THEIR use of PayPal as a payment processor, is there? Hell no. PayPal OWNS it.

I mean, let's call the kettle black here. Couldn't THAT be considered a double standard?

[ianh]

how did most companies become big

most probably with double standards

but when they have been caught out fair and square they have paid the penalty been dragged through the mud maybe even had to pay a large fine or as in the media been made to pay compensation

they have possibly even been made to publicly appologise

from bill's emails it appears that he blames everyone but himself for his mistakes

but if you were to make a mistake you have to lose some of your earnings or lose your account

well............ guess what i have now been paid after 48 days so if he puts his mind to it he can go that extra mile to try and save face

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
email extract 21 may 06

Apologies to those that their claims are being tooooo
slow, but, I am paying You interest, the same as I charge
You for unwarranted claims.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

although looking at this email i wonder. yes i got my payout but with none of this interest mentioned in, so who really lost, well i haven't i got what i wanted which is what was due to me no more no less

imo if you are going to send mails with this kind of content then at least remember what your comments are this would go a long way to prove how honest you really are

this saga for me is now at a close as i now have my money but i am leaving with a sour taste in my mouth but i for one now know that bill is not as honest as the picture painted of him

[LeighLRTE]

I thought about signing up to this site, but if this is the case then me and other fresh members should be aware of the problems that is related to bgpaymail, and I cannot thank you enough for bringing this to mine and other new members attention, many may say why critisise before even trying but then my answer would be, this isnt the only case where bill has breached his own contract so why should we take that risk :cool:

[freecashspace]

Compare the number of complaints against ANY PTR with the number of members they have, and there's your answer as to whether the program is worthy of your time. BgPayMail has over 11,000 members.Paypal has 96,000,000 accounts. I could be wrong, but my guess is that only a tiny percentage of those involve any complaints.

Paypal, like everybody else (including PTR owners) makes mistakes. In a number of cases, POs have contacted Paypal, explained the situation, and had their accounts unfrozen.

Are you saying that if a PTR owner breaks Paypal's rules, Paypal should feel obligated to give them another chance?

Oh, and just to clear something up. Paypal does not own Ebay. It's the other way around. Ebay owns Paypal.

Also, I don't know what's going on in the 'Mature Audiences' section at Ebay because they don't allow non-US members to have access. But if people are selling porn or other things that are against Paypal's AUP and they're accepting Paypal as a payment method, then they're breaking Paypal's rules. If they're reported, Paypal will most likely freeze/suspend/cancel their account.

Cheers,

Wil

[bellestraker]

Donna.

First you have made post after post in an effort to deflect from quite a few issues with BG and tried to shine the light on anyone and everyone except BG...

Now you are on paypal and seem to feel that if you repeat a few dozen times that it is unfair for Bill to have to abide by Paypal tos....then it will make sense.
It does not but once again you give a great example of the double standard you believe should be applied to BG.

Lia has summed it up well so I wont bother but I do have a couple questions which are not paypal related.

In this email from BG tonight he is threatening to delete someone's account.
Was someone deleted for posting either here or at gpf??


Quote BGPAYMAIL
Constructive critisizm is more than Welcome,
but, without the complete facts, well....
And NO, I will not dignify Your damaging posts
with my answer. But, I will certanly remove You
from my program(s).

There are other agencies with Parliament given
powers to do all and any Censorship, not mine.
end quote


Secondly...I do not really understand google tos so on this ad I am simply asking for any opinions.

It is an ad for shower gifts and ends with this.

Quote
Still not interested? Feel free to click on any Google ad to support our site, thus allowing us to continue to send you paid ads!
end quote



Have a good one

Belle


You continue to make this about payments but in fact...being late is only a very small part of the problems with BG.

[freecashspace]

Sounds like Bill's more than happy to delete anybody who posts things he doesn't like. Ouch! Not surprising, though, is it? Nothing we haven't seen over and over again. :(

And as for the second bit, I'm very familiar with Google's Adsense rules, and I can assure you that they don't approve of that kind of thing at all. Soliciting clicks on Adsense links for any reason, including to 'support the site' is damaging not only to the advertisers who pay for those clicks, but also to every honest Adsense publisher who plays by Google's rules. Telling PTR members that if they click the Adsense link you'll send more paid links is essentially paying them to click your adsense link. Google really doesn't like that sort of thing.

So from what I can tell, Bill doesn't care about Paypal's rules, and he obviously doesn't care about Google's rules, either. He seems quite happy to send out ads that deliberately rip people off. Somebody tell me again how Bill's all about helping people and teaching people the power of teamwork and all of that stuff?

Cheers,

Wil

[ianh]

from that email that you quote belle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi BG members

I have advertised this site before and had many of you sign in my downline
but need 5 more referrals to earn a Gold Membership

So what better place to try and advertise but right here.

GREETGOLD.COM

All emails worth 1,2,3C
$3 Dollar Payout
Payments Will Be Made Within 48 Hours

Members who get 30 1st refs will upgraded to gold membership

4 Ref Level of commission :

Level 1 - 8%

Level 2 - 4%

Level 3 - 2%

Level 4 - 1%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
seems as if it is ok to advertise sites that happen to be on the watch list here

can't understand why this forum is advertised as well

personally i would have thought that not advertising some sites would have been in your members interest and honest

its about time also that this bill stopped stamping his feet because he cant get his own way

go ahead bill delete our accounts, if you really think that is a solution

what do you think this is all just going to go away if you delete us

[bellestraker]

These are member ads and not sent "from" Bill but at the end of the day it is him who is responsible for keeping anything not allowed from being advertised on his site.

It does not make him any less responsible but I think that he is simply trusting the every day running of the site to a few members who are having a ball sending their own ads with absolutely no concern as to whether they abide by anyone's tos.

I said in the very beginning of the BG problems that it would be nice if the members who are so willing to call this man friend and to accept all the extras from him spent just a bit of time trying to protect him by sticking to the tos of other sites and thus not putting his paypal acct or his site in danger.

Its fine to show support by defending, deflecting and even denying knowledge of what all these things are (ie: hyips,mlm's etc.) but when push comes to shove..I don't think that will do much for BG.

Donna says Bill is a very busy man with several companies to run so he can not be expected to know all the tos of paypal etc.

If this is true then wouldn't it be nice if all these people who are so willing to sit with their hands out would spent just a little time checking for him.

Nah...I guess not...then how would they get their ads out or have access to all the extra clicks.Its nice to have friends who will stand up and defend but it would be much nicer if they made an effort to protect so there was no need to "defend".

Belle

[dcwike]

Hmmmmmmmmm, where to start here.


Still not interested? Feel free to click on any Google ad to support our site, thus allowing us to continue to send you paid ads!


from freecashspace
Telling PTR members that if they click the Adsense link you'll send more paid links is essentially paying them to click your adsense link. Google really doesn't like that sort of thing.

I don't see where this advertiser TELLS anyone what to do. They merely say, "Feel free." (to do as you want) and explains how their site is supported.

freecashpace
He seems quite happy to send out ads that deliberately rip people off.

And, prey tell, freecashspace, where can you prove Bill sent such ads to members?

And, how can LOOKING at ANY ad rip one off?

Belle
Donna says Bill is a very busy man with several companies to run so he can not be expected to know all the tos of paypal etc.

You sure I said, ".....not to be expected to know all the tos of paypal?"

Could you find that, please? I don't recall saying that, specifically.

At any rate, everyone is expected to read the tos of any establishment with which one is conducting business. Allbeit, if the tos be vague, or unclear, there may be differences in how one or another perceives their interpretations.

For example, to me, "Feel free" (as in do as you wish) means just that. But, freecashspace interprets it to means "Tell" (someone what to do).

Same goes for tos. Unless specifically clarified by name of site, what one perceives is a ponzi or pyramid, another may not. And, unless any ponzi or pyramid blatently STATES they are such, who's "perception" is right or wrong?

[Lia]

...
Same goes for tos. Unless specifically clarified by name of site, what one perceives is a ponzi or pyramid, another may not. And, unless any ponzi or pyramid blatently STATES they are such, who's "perception" is right or wrong?

Why do you need 'perception' with this? It is pretty clear IMO

Multi-level Marketing, Pyramid and Matrix Programs
You may not use PayPal to send or receive payments for any form of multi-level marketing programs (including online payment randomizers), as well as matrix, pyramid and Ponzi schemes, "get rich quick" schemes, “Autosurf” programs, High Yield Investment Programs (HYIP), or other similar ventures.

Multi-Level Marketing
Multi-level marketing plans, also known as "network" or "matrix" marketing, include any business in which a person receives proceeds from his or her own sales of goods or services, of recruited members, or any combination thereof. Similarly, PayPal prohibits as a Multi-Level Marketing plan any business in which payouts occur at two or more levels (both by the individual who actually sold the product as well as by the person(s) "upline" that recruited the selling individual). PayPal prohibits Multi-level Marketing plans whether or not they are legal under the laws of one or more states.

Pyramid and Ponzi Schemes
Pyramid schemes, including Gifting Clubs, involve the exchange of money in relation to the process of enrolling other people into the scheme. PayPal includes in its definition of "pyramid schemes" any system in which a hierarchy is created by people joining under others who joined previously, and in which those who join make payments to those above them in the hierarchy ("upline"). Pyramid schemes are prohibited as a form of investment fraud by federal laws and by the laws of each of the fifty individual states. PayPal considers online payment randomizers to be a type of pyramid scheme because the majority of commissions are paid for recruitment of new members, and typically operate by random placement within the program.

Ponzi schemes involve a system in which existing members of a program receive payouts that are largely funded by new payments into the program. The source of these new payments into the program can either be from new members paying to join the program or from existing members contributing more money to the program.

Matrix Programs
PayPal prohibits as a "matrix program" any business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for the purpose of being added to a waiting list for a product. In these instances, the individual at the top of the list receives the product only after a set number of people have joined below him or her.

"Get Rich Quick" And Other Related Businesses
Get Rich Quick schemes include any type of self-employment, start-up businesses, or investment opportunity where the claims of profit or returns on investment are unrealistic or unsupported. By law, if a business opportunity costs $500.00 USD or more, the promoter is required to support any claims regarding earnings or profits with written documentation.

In determining whether a website or account violates our Multi-level Marketing, Pyramid and Matrix Programs Policy, PayPal will consider some or all of the following factors:
• Offering commissions to recruit new members
• Requiring new distributors to purchase costly inventory or "start-up kits"
• Members' profits are derived from recruiting new members or from the sales of newly-recruited members ("downline"), rather than their own sales
• Payouts are funded through money paid into the system by new or existing members
• Money paid into the system is significantly greater than money paid out
• Unrealistic or unsupported promises regarding profits/return on investment
• Percentage of the company’s goods sold by non-distributor
• Businesses warned against by the Better Business Bureau, state Attorney General, Federal Trade Commission (FTC), or any state or federal agency
• Flow of money derived from new members predominantly moves "upline"
• Preservation of the business rests on the exponential growth of new members or customers
• Speculative real estate or non-development property

[dcwike]

Question:

Does anyone know of any payment processing service that's been spanked by the government for allowing transactions for the advertisements of ponzis or MLM?

What I don't understand is, why it is PayPal who can call a program a ponzi or pyramid? Why not let the government determine which is and which is not such?

Should not those who see a program as a ponzi report it to the government instead of PayPal? After all, isn't it the government who regulates and enforces the laws? And is it not the government who has the REAL power to shut a ponzi down.

[Merlin2307]

DCWick I love tilting at windmills as much as the next person,but your reasoning on paypal makes all the sense of the backside of an old farm mule. Paypal is a world wide business, it has a right to set rules and modify those rules at any time just like you have a right to change TOS with your business. You both even have a right to screw up other peoples lives by not following those terms when you feel like it. It boils down to if you or any other business wants to do business with paypal as a payment processor you have to PLAY BY THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS! If you desire not to play by those rules and regs, then paypal has a right to do as they see fit with your account for violation of those rules. Your other option is find another payment processor that allows you to do what you want, or start your own processor. Pain and simple quit whining,belly aching cuz or what other adjective you would care to use,you got caught...live with it! JMO

[Josh]

Question:

Does anyone know of any payment processing service that's been spanked by the government for allowing transactions for the advertisements of ponzis or MLM?

What I don't understand is, why it is PayPal who can call a program a ponzi or pyramid? Why not let the government determine which is and which is not such?

Should not those who see a program as a ponzi report it to the government instead of PayPal? After all, isn't it the government who regulates and enforces the laws? And is it not the government who has the REAL power to shut a ponzi down.

Reasons why PayPal does not wait for the government to tell them which programs are Ponzis (or pyramids, or whatever):

1. It defies reasoning. As has already been mentioned, PayPal was punished for the gambling transactions previously. Did the federal government catch them doing it and say "Okay, but don't let us find you doing that again!"? No - they were fined. If the government decides to act upon the use of their service for Ponzi scheme funding (which is always illegal, whereas even gambling has exceptions), or even promoting, a punishment could be meted out without additional opportunities for compliance.

2. The government already has said that they are illegal. Is PayPal immune to laws and rulings so that it can get away with anything it wants to until it waits for the government to come to it? I'd say, probably not. Programs with similar terms are all classified under one category:

These various "prime bank" trading programs or similar trading programs that offer secret, private investment markets, which purport to offer above average market returns with below market risk through the trading of bank instruments are fraudulent. Offering such programs, or claiming to be able to introduce investors to people who have access to such programs, violates numerous federal law; including criminal laws.

Source (emphasis mine): http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/cc/ccphony9.htm

3. They're also illegal, regardless of their rate of return or feasibility (it doesn't even matter whether it is actually a Ponzi), because they are unregistered sales of securities:

It is illegal to engage in fraud in the offer or sale of a security. Under most circumstances, it is also illegal to sell securities that have not been registered with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. A security includes the following items: "note", "stock", "bond", and "debenture" as well as more general terms such as "investment contract" and "any interest or instrument commonly known as a 'security'."

Source: http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/cc/ccphony9.htm

Also, the government, specifically the Securities and Exchange Commission, has already claimed that "12daily Pro’s sale of membership units constituted the fraudulent and unregistered sale of securities under the federal securities laws." Source here (http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr19579.htm). It's been made quite clear that autosurf "upgrades," "membership fees," "dues," etc., are all illegal unregistered securities.

4. PayPal has every right to cover itself by holding policies tighter than legally required. Doesn't every business have that right? You want to use their service, you follow their rules - whether those be in place for their protection, for yours, for no public reason, or simply because it is run by ruthless, cunning, evil dictators who hate Ponzi schemes. It is their prerogative to set rules, and yours (anyone's) to elect whether or not to use the service provided by that business under the provisions stated.


About other payment processors being "spanked" I'm not sure why that matters, but yes, E-Gold and IntGold were raided. StormPay went through a huge investigation in light of the 12dailypro issue.

One might ask, do those qualify as "spankings" despite not being fines? Aside from the fact that having the government flipping through details of any business should be considered thus, take a look at the side effects with which these businesses had to deal. E-Gold went down for a short while, consumers lost a good deal of confidence in it from what I recall, and their traffic dipped 25% (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=http://www.e-gold.com) for a period of three weeks coinciding with the raid. IntGold is now closed. StormPay went in and out of service for weeks, received DDoS attacks by angry netizens after returning, and you can take a look for yourself at how their traffic (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=http://www.stormpay.com) has fared since the FBI went through their files.

I believe EMOcorp is also essentially dead in the water, as its site is gone and it is in receivership. I'm not sure whether the spark to that was Ponzi and fraudulent investment schemes, though.

As for your final question, of course, Ponzis should be reported to the government. PayPal also requests that violations of it's AUP be reported to it - what is wrong if someone does honor that request as well? It's purely a business decision, and by having active members who help PayPal nip these transactions in the bud, PayPal is all the safer and more likely able to continue service for those members (and all members) without interruption from the government.

Also, if someone really did report BGpaymail to PayPal, it wasn't because the site itself is a Ponzi, so your saying that the government is what will shut Ponzis down isn't relevant to this case, although I do agree that it's true in many Ponzi cases where they have not yet had a chance to self-destruct.

I hope that answers your questions. :)

Josh

[ianh]

thanks for taking the time to do this Josh i for one have found it most interesting reading a rational post on this matter

[freecashspace]

If you want to play word games, that's fine dcwike. I don't encourage Adsense publishers to try to play them with Google.

Google's Adsense Program Policies are fairly clear:
Incentives

Web pages may not include incentives of any kind for users to click on ads. This includes encouraging users to click on the ads or to visit the advertisers' sites as well as drawing any undue attention to the ads. For example, your site cannot contain phrases such as "click here," "support us," "visit these links," or other similar language that could apply to any ad, regardless of content. These activities are strictly prohibited in order to avoid potential inflation of advertiser costs. In addition, publishers may not bring unnatural attention to sites displaying ads or referral buttons through unsolicited mass emails or unwanted advertisements on third-party websites. Publishers are also not permitted to use deceptive or unnatural means to draw attention to or incite clicks on referral buttons.

Prohibited Clicks and Impressions

Any method that artificially generates clicks or impressions is strictly prohibited. These prohibited methods include but are not limited to: repeated manual clicks or impressions, incentives to click or to generate impressions, using robots, automated click and impression generating tools, third-party services that generate clicks or impressions such as paid-to-click, paid-to-surf, autosurf, and click-exchange programs, or any deceptive software. Please note that clicking on your own ads for any reason is prohibited, to avoid potential inflation of advertiser costs.

Interestingly, Google's another of these big companies that seems to like tell people what they can and can't include on their websites if they want to do business with them:
Site Content

Site may not include:

* Excessive profanity
* Violence, racial intolerance, or advocate against any individual, group, or organization
* Hacking/cracking content
* Illicit drugs and drug paraphernalia
* Pornography, adult, or mature content
* Gambling or casino-related content
* Excessive advertising
* Any other content that promotes illegal activity or infringes on the legal rights of others
* Pop-ups, pop-unders or exit windows that interfere with site navigation, obscure Google ads, change user preferences, or are for downloads. Other types of pop-ups, pop-unders, or exit windows may be allowed, provided that they do not exceed a combined total of 5 per user session
* Excessive, repetitive, or irrelevant keywords in the content or code of web pages
* Deceptive or manipulative content or construction to improve your site's search engine ranking, e.g., your site's PageRank
* Incentives (monetary or point-based) to users or third-party beneficiaries for online activity including, but not limited to, clicking on ads or links, performing searches, surfing websites, reading emails, or completing surveys
* Sales or promotion of certain weapons, such as firearms, ammunition, balisongs, butterfly knives, and brass knuckles
* Sales or promotion of beer or hard alcohol
* Sales or promotion of tobacco or tobacco-related products
* Sales or promotion of prescription drugs
* Sales or promotion of products that are replicas or imitations of designer goods
Gee, where does Google get off making rules like that?

Cheers,

Wil

[dcwike]

Thanks, Josh for going the extra mile to present the facts. Excellent, and well done. It was very interesting.

And, THAT'S how it should be done. Let the government interpret the laws and show case first.

Now, if you look into the case, you will see where 12 Daily went wrong. By intent, the owner did use company money for personal gain by transferring members' monies for investment into her own personal bank account. That IS indeed fraud.

However, is that to say that ALL surf sites should be banned from advertising? Are there not genuine owners out there that truly do want to act on investments, similiar to the stock markets, but, on a smaller scale, sharing profits, as do the companies that sell stock?

Nevertheless, the government provided a NAME of a company that, indeed, did violate the law, and they showed, by CASE, and investigation HOW the law was violated.

The sad thing about laws issued by governments is they cannot be enforced until caught, or proved by investigation, that a law has been broken.