Possible new section for Watch List

[lil crusader]

I was just wondering if any consideration had been given to adding a new section to the Watch List that would name all of the known "click fraud is cool"-type search programs that are springing up everywhere.

These are the programs like qualiyt-cash, dayslook, golfmails, etc. that openly tell their members that they will be "rewarded" for doing valid searches by receiving extra emails. A few of them, paidmailengine and golfmails come to mind immediately, have gone so far as to brand those members who refuse to participate in this blatant click fraud as being "cheaters."

These programs will probably never have complaints submitted about them as they're known for paying very quickly and the people who apparently don't know any better (or just don't care) view this as easy money. As long as the payouts keep coming, they're not going to say a word.

Creating a special section for these programs that so openly violate the TOS of just about every search engine in existence seems to be the only way to get the word out about what these programs are doing and how horribly they are ripping off those who have paid to advertise on SEs.

[govind]

I didn't know that this kind of activity was going on. I M not in such programs. I think they should to be punished!

[trulyfair]

That's a great idea, lil crusader! :)

It would be extremely helpful to those of us who do not condone click fraud. Much easier than joining a program and then later finding out that you will get more mails if you do a 'valid' search.

[Josh]

A list of sites would be good.

Even better would be some in-depth review on how the process works, which would show what those sites are actually doing, rather than merely naming them in the category. This could also help out those who honestly do not know what is taking place.

[bellestraker]

A list of sites would be good.

Even better would be some in-depth review on how the process works, which would show what those sites are actually doing, rather than merely naming them in the category. This could also help out those who honestly do not know what is taking place.


There are so many threads which explain it in depth..but the "in depth "part is where we run into trouble.

It is unlikely that anyone not participating in the original thread is going to spend the time reading through dozens of pages to find out what its all about. ( even if it were possible amongst all the personal opinions)

So it would be great to see an actual review that really explains it without all the side issues included.

Good idea Josh.

Belle

[Josh]

There are so many threads which explain it in depth..but the "in depth "part is where we run into trouble.

It is unlikely that anyone not participating in the original thread is going to spend the time reading through dozens of pages to find out what its all about. ( even if it were possible amongst all the personal opinions)

So it would be great to see an actual review that really explains it without all the side issues included.

Good idea Josh.

Belle

Side issues = personal attacks, other true but irrelevant points regarding the sites, misleading information, 95% of posts by me, etc.

Yes, it would condense, sort and clarify the information. It would also allow for something to be out there for people to see and read, rather than only having them find some of these threads if they randomly search through the archives.

Anyway, I would like to see a list. I also think that it is important to explain in unequivocable terms why the sites are on the list, rather than have the reasoning be guessed (and possibly doubted) by the reader. Since new sites are constantly popping up, it would also prepare them for the future.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

[AnI4AnI]

Pam, I had to think about your request a bit before I posted my opinion, (for what it's worth) about your suggestion.

The thing that jumps out at me is that I'm wondering why we should distinguish between degrees of fraud. I mean, to me it doesn't really matter to the SE advertiser whether or not someone is politely ripping them off or obnoxiously ripping them off.

It's all wrong, and it has been for a long time!

If we protest one behavior, yet embrace another then we're no better than the cops who bust drug users then sell the crack concaine on the side. I don't want to be a part of a wink-wink, nod-nod society where something is acceptable only if we like someone, but not if we don't. We're focusing on their behavior, not the issue. We're either against click fraud in all it's forms and guises or we're not.

I know I've made a lot of enemies and a lot of people ticked off but it isn't my fault that they put people on the spot like that when they practice these deceptions.

I guess this is the part where I offer an alternative solution but until we are provided with some kind of firm commitment from the staff here at GPTB regarding click fraud, there isn't much to suggest other than just keep educating people about it.

[Josh]

Hopefully, if everything about the process was clearly explained for what it is, that would lead the reader to see where cheating the advertiser is wrong on all counts.

[AnI4AnI]

Everything has been explained, laid out, opened up, examined and proven but it's in threads that are long buried and forgotten about. That's why it's imperative that the forum itself creates specific locations which are easily identifiable, where people can find the information.

[Josh]

Everything has been explained, laid out, opened up, examined and proven but it's in threads that are long buried and forgotten about. That's why it's imperative that the forum itself creates specific locations which are easily identifiable, where people can find the information.

That's exactly what I've been saying. :)

[bellestraker]

I dont explain it very well but thats pretty well what I have tried to say.

What difference does it make if we are TOLD to search or if its done by the "wink wink" method.

I always get the answer that ..It says in the SE tos that we cant SAY it so thats what is what is "wrong".

I was nicely put in my place a few times for asking what the difference is.

To me..The difference is..The demands are drawing attention and will result in SE ads being cut off for gptr (which IMO would be a good thing).

The concern for following the tos seems only to be a measure to protect the cash cow from getting slaughtered.


Dont the advertisers get ripped off EVERYTIME we make a search which we do not GENUINELY need to make or at a SE where we know we wont get the result we want.

How many would be making these searches if they were not being paid??
( 1 in 100??..less/more)

Belle

I think lils idea is to "start somewhere" and until there are changes that may be the only choice.

So many po's flood us with searches and then say they are not demanding,asking etc. for us to do them.

Then why do we not all just click the links and NEVER do any searches...Makes sense to me.

( I'm sure they wouldnt mind.)
After all..its not expected...Is it?

[Josh]

The SE ToSes don't say that you're not allowed to call it incentivized, but that you're not allowed to incentivize it. It's generally excused by most people as "not incentivized" if it's not clearly stated that you get something for clicking on it, however, it is understood.

In that case, there is no "proof" that incentivization is taking place, unless you want to dig deep into the bottom of the cup of pudding, to find the penny (or 1/4 penny). At most programs, the owner won't say anything on-site about clicking on the search results, but there may be details which are not in public, such as admin emails. Also, enough people know that the advertisers won't be back without results, so they take those 20 seconds to click on a result rather than idly watching the timer run down.

The understood knowledge of needing to click something in order to receive any future emails is equally important no matter whether the threat is deletion for being a "cheater" or simply having no advertisers return.


I dont explain it very well but thats pretty well what I have tried to say.

What difference does it make if we are TOLD to search or if its done by the "wink wink" method.

I always get the answer that ..It says in the SE tos that we cant SAY it so thats what is what is "wrong".

I was nicely put in my place a few times for asking what the difference is.

To me..The difference is..The demands are drawing attention and will result in SE ads being cut off for gptr (which IMO would be a good thing).

The concern for following the tos seems only to be a measure to protect the cash cow from getting slaughtered.


Dont the advertisers get ripped off EVERYTIME we make a search which we do not GENUINELY need to make or at a SE where we know we wont get the result we want.

How many would be making these searches if they were not being paid??
( 1 in 100??..less/more)

Belle

I think lils idea is to "start somewhere" and until there are changes that may be the only choice.

So many po's flood us with searches and then say they are not demanding,asking etc. for us to do them.

Then why do we not all just click the links and NEVER do any searches...Makes sense to me.

( I'm sure they wouldnt mind.)
After all..its not expected...Is it?

[mlev]

I wrote the following in a other forum, and still believe in (edited some of the bold part):
What is it that people don't understand about incentive.

If you click a search, for any other reason then making a valid search,
or it is beneficial that you really search or not for you or a third party,
it is incentive.

-Paid to click and search, obviously, even if you really do a search and buy, you were paid
-click to "support a site", will allow them pay you more, and/or faster, I think trying get paid faster is a good incentive
-click on someone's site, to help the Site owner to make more money yes indirectly
-click for a charitable reason yes, sorry to say, because the $ collected is a donation on your part, even though it may sound weird

Some of my points seems far fetch, but really, think about it !
I may miss some points/ examples, but still represents a good part of it !

[Josh]

Good find, mlev. :)

incentive n. Something, such as the fear of punishment or the expectation of reward, that induces action or motivates effort.

That certainly covers a lot of territory, which isn't necessarily mentioned often!

Anything inducing or motivating for any reason whatsoever is a form of incentivizing.

[bluedahlia]

Well there is a difference I think. I'm in a couple programs where there are a lot of search ads. The only time I make a valid search is if there IS something I am looking for or if I see something that interests me. Otherwise, I let the timer run out. I have tried researching with some of these portals because I am a research-a-holic, but the results often are not what I was trying to get info on. In that case, I don't go any further. Sometimes, I get some pretty interesting results. Now if people wouldn't make blind valid searches, I think the search advertisers would promote less and things might level out a bit.

The programs I am in have never ever mentioned bad results or tried to make members feel responsible for same. Why should these good programs be painted with the same brush as those who punish their members for not making bogus searches?

I think its up to the MEMBERS to refrain from making bogus searches just for the sake of return business. Its like a falling card effect and I say it really rests on the members to be responsible in the way they handle searches. If there is balance in one section of the chain, then that will force balance in the other sections/links of the chain.

Sure it might mean less $$$$, and it might take longer to reach payout, if searches were done this way, but it would be the honourable way to handle this.

OT - How many know, right off the bat, what TV oldie but goodie (no SEARCHING now) my sig is connected with. Oh the memories!

[bellestraker]

The voice of reason lol.
So often your posts make me stop and re-think things that I was so sure I had covered from every angle and this time I really wish I could see a way of not hurting the good po's..and I can even understand that they are sending out what they can get ( in order to survive) but no matter how its done..Someone is going to get hurt.

You are right that it is somewhat unfair to the po's who are not demanding..(or winking lol ) but I am unsure if there is ever a chance of it leveling off.

Even if no-one ever says things like " If you dont search (valid) there will be no more advertisers for seaches etc. ( Main menu) it has already been so deeply ingrained that we MUST search that I am willing to bet there is a very small % of searches which are the " I am REALLY looking for something" type.

I think stopping the PO's from "Saying it" will actually be the easy part but does anyone sending dozens of search ads every day really believe that ...even with the lousy results..the people clicking are using THAT link to really search.. simply because it is convenient.

If that were the case why would they not just put it there for convenience and not add a value.?

The hardest part will be stopping the members from searching to get that 1/4 cent.

There is a small number that are using them legitimately but I wonder if its enough to offset the others.

I can not ever wrap my mind around a PAID search..being classed as "non incentivized".



Take care

Belle




Well there is a difference I think. I'm in a couple programs where there are a lot of search ads. The only time I make a valid search is if there IS something I am looking for or if I see something that interests me. Otherwise, I let the timer run out. I have tried researching with some of these portals because I am a research-a-holic, but the results often are not what I was trying to get info on. In that case, I don't go any further. Sometimes, I get some pretty interesting results. Now if people wouldn't make blind valid searches, I think the search advertisers would promote less and things might level out a bit.

Now the programs I am in have never ever mentioned bad results or tried to make members feel responsible for same. Why should these good programs be punished in any way.

I think its up to the MEMBERS to refrain from making bogus searches just for the sake of return business. Its like a falling card effect and I say it really rests on the members to be responsible in the way they handle searches. If there is balance in one section of the chain, then that will force balance in the other sections/links of the chain.

Sure it might mean less $$$$ if searches were done this way, but it would be the honourable way to handle this.

[bluedahlia]

The voice of reason lol.
So often your posts make me stop and re-think things that I was so sure I had covered from every angle and this time I really wish I could see a way of not hurting the good po's..and I can even understand that they are sending out what they can get ( in order to survive) but no matter how its done..Someone is going to get hurt.

You are right that it is somewhat unfair to the po's who are not demanding..(or winking lol ) but I am unsure if there is ever a chance of it leveling off.

Even if no-one ever says things like " If you dont search (valid) there will be no more advertisers for seaches etc. ( Main menu) it has already been so deeply ingrained that we MUST search that I am willing to bet there is a very small % of searches which are the " I am REALLY looking for something" type.

I think stopping the PO's from "Saying it" will actually be the easy part but does anyone sending dozens of search ads every day really believe that ...even with the lousy results..the people clicking are using THAT link to really search.. simply because it is convenient.

If that were the case why would they not just put it there for convenience and not add a value.?

The hardest part will be stopping the members from searching to get that 1/4 cent.

There is a small number that are using them legitimately but I wonder if its enough to offset the others.

I can not ever wrap my mind around a PAID search..being classed as "non incentivized".



Take care

Belle

Yes, I agree with the members mostly being brainwashed regarding searches. That's where these forums come in handy. I have taken sneak peaks in some of the forums where the payouts are really low and the PO sends out nothing but search links and its very easy to see that those members might as well be human click bots.......only interested in brown nosing it with the PO and the 1/4 cent return business.

If members search less = less searches. Cause and effect. There would be fallout and not every program would survive but at least it would bring a little more balance into the system...........

[AnI4AnI]

If we look at it purely from the perspective of the SE advertiser, who are the ones dishing out the money to pay for these clicks, we can then understand why it's important to discourage all forms of incentivesed traffic. They are paying to be listed in a search engine where interested individuals may find them, which could invariably lead to a sale which in turn, would alleviate the burden of the cost of advertising.

For anyone to brazenly dillute this process along the way is equivelant to siphoning someone else's money which they have no business taking.

In fact, I've always found it amazing how so-called "good" people can justify it. You might as well walk into a store and slip a few things in your pockets because that's what it amounts to. Theft. Pure and simple. These advertisers have a right to want what they are paying for....interested, voluntary, ungoaded, non-incentivised traffic.

The right way to do it was for SE affiliates to create a web-site and put a search box on it....then let people search if they need to look for something. However, people in the PTR industry have found every which way they possibly could to exploit the set-up. So, I don't agree that sending search links is ok and that it's up to the members to behave accordingly. Search links shouldn't even be being sent. A simple search box on the homepage of the site should be the only reference, other than sending ads for PTR advertiser's web-sites which may also include a search box. Everything else is just plain fraud, designed to steal from the original SE advertiser.

[AnI4AnI]

One more thing, if I opened a business, any business....and it's survival was dependent upon the exploitation of someone or something, I think I'd reassess my priorities in a hurry.

Not that I expect anyone who owns a PTR site to do that. Heck, look at the fur trade which tends to encourage illegal poaching of wild and exotic animals. Some people care, others don't. That's life. We all have to live with ourselves, though.

[mlev]

OT - How many know, right off the bat, what TV oldie but goodie (no SEARCHING now) my sig is connected with. Oh the memories!
U.N.C.L.E, I think (was different in french, which I am)

[bluedahlia]

So I guess what you're saying is that members have no responsibility at all. We just follow the leader and can't think for ourselves. I am totally against click fraud but look at things objectively, and try to find a middle ground.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. - Abraham Maslow

[bellestraker]

When search ads first became popular I was always SO CAREFUL to do a valid search on each one.

I actually thought I WAS doing the honest thing and I think many others still believe that.

Who knows how it will all end..But we can be sure that....end it will.

Belle




If we look at it purely from the perspective of the SE advertiser, who are the ones dishing out the money to pay for these clicks, we can then understand why it's important to discourage all forms of incentivesed traffic. They are paying to be listed in a search engine where interested individuals may find them, which could invariably lead to a sale which in turn, would alleviate the burden of the cost of advertising.

For anyone to brazenly dillute this process along the way is equivelant to siphoning someone else's money which they have no business taking.

In fact, I've always found it amazing how so-called "good" people can justify it. You might as well walk into a store and slip a few things in your pockets because that's what it amounts to. Theft. Pure and simple. These advertisers have a right to want what they are paying for....interested, voluntary, ungoaded, non-incentivised traffic.

The right way to do it was for SE affiliates to create a web-site and put a search box on it....then let people search if they need to look for something. However, people in the PTR industry have found every which way they possibly could to exploit the set-up. So, I don't agree that sending search links is ok and that it's up to the members to behave accordingly. Search links shouldn't even be being sent. A simple search box on the homepage of the site should be the only reference, other than sending ads for PTR advertiser's web-sites which may also include a search box. Everything else is just plain fraud, designed to steal from the original SE advertiser.

[AnI4AnI]

So I guess what you're saying is that members have no responsibility at all. We just follow the leader and can't think for ourselves. I am totally against click fraud but look at things objectively, and try to find a middle ground.


If people were following the SE TOS, members wouldn't even be confronted with this dilemna...to search or not to search...to search if we want to get paid or not. Like I said, a SE affiliate can put a search box on their site, then when a member happens to see the site and they want to bookmark it, they can and if that member wants to use that particular search box for their search needs, as long as they don't abuse it (the buddy system thing) then that should be fine, too but that isn't human nature. Human nature is to push everything to the limit.

If a PTR site that I belonged to was primarily dependent upon search links, then I'd voice my protests or I'd unsubscribe if it became intolerable.

Submitting has never been one of my favorite options.

[bluedahlia]

When search ads first became popular I was always SO CAREFUL to do a valid search on each one.

I actually thought I WAS doing the honest thing and I think many others still believe that.

Who knows how it will all end..But we can be sure that....end it will.

Belle

The days of all members doing all valid searches are long gone and it will definitely end. I have already seen a reduction in these kinds of ads in the last 6 months. And this is probably why some of the PO's are getting a little irate with their members.......the bad results. If this keeps up, the PO's and advertisers will have no alternative but to look for something else to advertise.

[bellestraker]

It seems we so often want to go after the PO when often they are simply following the members lead. In this case there is enough to cover everyone.
I know PO's run their own ads but I would venture to guess that the vast majority are member ads.

I think that is why so many real issues get sidetracked. We often tend to over compensate and competely overlook the fact that there may be a middle ground.

I seem to always use freebie as an example as she is one of the more vocal about having found things are very different "On the other side of the desk"

This pretty well says it all.

quote bluedahlia
If members search less = less searches. Cause and effect. There would be fallout and not every program would survive but at least it would bring a little more balance into the system...........

Take care

Belle




So I guess what you're saying is that members have no responsibility at all. We just follow the leader and can't think for ourselves. I am totally against click fraud but look at things objectively, and try to find a middle ground.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. - Abraham Maslow

[bluedahlia]

If people were following the SE TOS, members wouldn't even be confronted with this dilemna...to search or not to search...to search if we want to get paid or not. Like I said, a SE affiliate can put a search box on their site, then when a member happens to see the site and they want to bookmark it, they can and if that member wants to use that particular search box for their search needs, as long as they don't abuse it (the buddy system thing) then that should be fine, too but that isn't human nature. Human nature is to push everything to the limit.

If a PTR site that I belonged to was primarily dependent upon search links, then I'd voice my protests or I'd unsubscribe if it became intolerable.

Submitting has never been one of my favorite options.

One need not submit and still make their point.;)

[mlev]

That a person does a valid search or not,
that this person has a good reason to search or not,
does not change the fact that if you are getting paid,
or are getting an "advantage",
this still is an "incentivized" search.

The fact that even if you do a valid search, for a real need,
if you do it through an "incentivized" link,
you are helping to perpetuate the "click fraud".

Now, if you were to tell me that you are clicking a paid link to reach a search page, or portal, without performing a search....
I would say it can be construed as possibly:
- you want get paid for the link, who cares, it's money for you,
- you want to make the search engine advertisers lose interest in PTR as avenue, by giving them back same treatment they are giving the original bidder

BTW blue, is U.N.C.L.E. right, what do I win ?

[bluedahlia]

That a person does a valid search or not,
that this person has a good reason to search or not,
does not change the fact that if you are getting paid,
or are getting an "advantage",
this still is an "incentivized" search.

The fact that even if you do a valid search, for a real need,
if you do it through an "incentivized" link,
you are helping to perpetuate the "click fraud".

Now, if you were to tell me that you are clicking a paid link to reach a search page, or portal, without performing a search....
I would say it can be construed as possibly:
- you want get paid for the link, who cares, it's money for you,
- you want to make the search engine advertisers lose interest in PTR as avenue, by giving them back same treatment they are giving the original bidder

BTW blue, is U.N.C.L.E. right, what do I win ?

Bingo on all counts!

OOPS forgot to mention that you won a special prize..........The knowledge that dementia has not yet set in. Now you didn't use a lifeline did you?

[AnI4AnI]

The program owner is the operator of the vehicle. They determine what direction it goes, not the passengers. They began many months ago by catering to the SE affiliates who wanted to advertise their portals with PTR sites, and some POs even became affiliates themselves and even worse, got their own search engines. That's what I meant by pushing things to the limit. It seems PTR has become living proof for the maxim that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

See, I don't think that a passenger can determine which direction the vehicle goes unless they forcefully take over the steering wheel, or they influence the driver one way or the other to go off course. So, if the driver is easily bought, bribed or influenced, then yes, the members do share some of the blame but it's ultimately up to the driver to maintain control of the vehicle. And since many POs lost control when they began pandering to SE affiliates, we end up in a place we never intended to go.

[mlev]

Bingo on all counts!

OOPS forgot to mention that you won a special prize..........The knowledge that dementia has not yet set in. Now you didn't use a lifeline did you?
Gosh, yes, Elias Koriakin (sp ?)

Sorry, erring back to topic.

[mlev]

The program owner is the operator of the vehicle. They determine what direction it goes, not the passengers. They began many months ago by catering to the SE affiliates who wanted to advertise their portals with PTR sites, and some POs even became affiliates themselves and even worse, got their own search engines. That's what I meant by pushing things to the limit. It seems PTR has become living proof for the maxim that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

See, I don't think that a passenger can determine which direction the vehicle goes unless they forcefully take over the steering wheel, or they influence the driver one way or the other to go off course. So, if the driver is easily bought, bribed or influenced, then yes, the members do share some of the blame but it's ultimately up to the driver to maintain control of the vehicle. And since many POs lost control when they began pandering to SE affiliates, we end up in a place we never intended to go.

They are both at fault, some unknowingly.
The PO for allowing advertising the searches, expecting people to make searches. Some case (rare), the PO tells the SE advertiser, he won't force members make searches.
The members (which % knowingly or not) for following through with the searches.

Keep in mind that if one knows how to use those "grey" areas, no-one will officially complaint. Since all parties are making money, who cares about the original bidder ?

[AnI4AnI]

If the PO refused to push search links then the members wouldn't be put in a difficult situation. In other words, it all goes back to the PO or the driver. Right now, because of the poor decisions many POs made, members have been put into a moral dilemna.

Members have very little, if any... control of what they recieve when they join a program. By accepting these forms of advertising, the PO has put their members in an undesirable situation. One which the member finds they are darned if they do and darned if they don't. I'm not sure I place too much blame on them when they are merely reacting to the given circumstances. It's the POs who have the power to stop the pilfering.

The same with manual traffic exchanges. I find it increasingly difficult to surf when it appears they are accepting all sorts of illegal HYIPs and ponzis and mlms and bubble games and all kinds of things, anywhere from out-and-out illegal to things that are highly suspicious. I don't have any control over that unless I choose to send in an error report every time one appears and that would probably jeapordize my account rather than have the desired effect of the cessation of those types of sites. Unless lots of people protest, the occassional stray complainer will be kicked to the side.

[bellestraker]

The program owner is the operator of the vehicle. They determine what direction it goes, not the passengers. They began many months ago by catering to the SE affiliates who wanted to advertise their portals with PTR sites, and some POs even became affiliates themselves and even worse, got their own search engines. That's what I meant by pushing things to the limit. It seems PTR has become living proof for the maxim that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

See, I don't think that a passenger can determine which direction the vehicle goes unless they forcefully take over the steering wheel, or they influence the driver one way or the other to go off course. So, if the driver is easily bought, bribed or influenced, then yes, the members do share some of the blame but it's ultimately up to the driver to maintain control of the vehicle. And since many POs lost control when they began pandering to SE affiliates, we end up in a place we never intended to go.



I have been the passenger in the odd vehicle where the old "My way or the highway" trip has been tried.

A little ingenuity usually made the driver see the error of his ways and.. we managed to make it to our proper destination unscathed.lol.

Just like in gptr..If I dont want to play the game..I can always "convince the driver" to see things my way OR find another ride home.

None of us need be controlled unless we choose to be and laying all the blame on the PO is IMO sidestepping our own responsibility.

Have a good one

Belle

[freebiesite]

Well...ani...since YOU seem to know so much, why dont YOU hire out as the ad specialist and "run the ship" and bring in the ads??

I brought in ads from home biz owners on aol....with lousy results

I brought in some ads only to hear a few people say they were mlm( ie, mary kay LOL)

I see the same pharma companies on the se that were there 6 months ago..if they are selling more or less viagra, i honestly do NOT care, but if YOU do then put your money where your mouth is...you could even earn money

hire out as the ad specialist...get 10% or whatever of all the ads you bring in..you could even add a page to your "blog" about it, put the sites you will broker ads for?:baaa: :baaa:

[Josh]

They are both at fault, some unknowingly.
The PO for allowing advertising the searches, expecting people to make searches. Some case (rare), the PO tells the SE advertiser, he won't force members make searches.
The members (which % knowingly or not) for following through with the searches.

Keep in mind that if one knows how to use those "grey" areas, no-one will officially complaint. Since all parties are making money, who cares about the original bidder ?

That's the problem, and that's why getting something off of what you are already interested in and already intend to purchase would work a lot better in the end than being paid for mere reading.

Then, and only then, will every party be able to benefit. The original company will sell a product for a profit, the advertiser will earn an affiliate commission, the WM will receive a small portion, and those members who are interested will buy a quality item at a discounted/rebated price.

[freebiesite]

I must also say that I sometimes wonder if anyone other than this small group really even thinks this has any importance..

most markets self correct themselves..that is why the 100/1000/100000 sites are dying out....

JMO>> without the ptrs these lower tier se would have NO traffic
the fact that people do come back and renew their ads says that they are making money

They do keep running the same ads...they are presumably not babies or mentally ill or whatever, so we have to assume they are selling some viagra and getting some people to try their casinos or signup to sue over vioxx or whatever
If he finds the results bad, I guess he wont advertise there huh?

.if these small 3rd tier feeds and engines shut down these advertisers would not have a comparable place to advertise...do you think these advertisers would go to google and pay their prices? I dont think so....

without the ptrs these se would shut down and the very advertisers you worry so much about will have NO place to advertise

[AnI4AnI]

I have been the passenger in the odd vehicle where the old "My way or the highway" trip has been tried.

A little ingenuity usually made the driver see the error of his ways and.. we managed to make it to our proper destination unscathed.lol.

Just like in gptr..If I dont want to play the game..I can always "convince the driver" to see things my way OR find another ride home.

None of us need be controlled unless we choose to be and laying all the blame on the PO is IMO sidestepping our own responsibility.


With all this power, control and influence you seem to think you have Belle, why haven't you made these deadbeat POs cough up the cash they owe?



Freebie, we've been through this before. I have nothing to prove. How immature to even suggest that. It isn't my responsibility to get advertisers to your site just as it isn't the responsibility of a district attorney to find a drug cartel some kind of honest employment or for a cop to purchase a few diamond necklaces so that the burglar he just busted can go pawn them.

[freebiesite]

That's the problem, and that's why getting something off of what you are already interested in and already intend to purchase would work a lot better in the end than being paid for mere reading.

Then, and only then, will every party be able to benefit. The original company will sell a product for a profit, the advertiser will earn an affiliate commission, the WM will receive a small portion, and those members who are interested will buy a quality item at a discounted/rebated price.

JMO>>> before you even get into affiiate marketing you need to address the factor of scumware..

amazes me that the noble and honest folks here wont get interested in that..cause that is what most affiliate marketers/advertisers worry about, not about the search engines....

Scumware is the worst..it overwrites the affiliate commission...and makes your whole idea of "offer products with a discount" null and void

scumware...now there is something that many people care about ...but as usual no one here cares too much..

pop pop pop go the popups... and some do carry downloads and trojans and scumware

I wonder how many potential "shoppers" in ptr have infected computers??

[freebiesite]

With all this power, control and influence you seem to think you have Belle, why haven't you made these deadbeat POs cough up the cash they owe?



Freebie, we've been through this before. I have nothing to prove. How immature to even suggest that. It isn't my responsibility to get advertisers to your site just as it isn't the responsibility of a district attorney to find a drug cartel some kind of honest employment or for a cop to purchase a few diamond necklaces so that the burglar he just busted can go pawn them.


Your analogies are really getting tiresome

I guess that all ptrs should just shut down to keep you happy .... rather than having this site about getting paid it has become more about limiting ads that sites can run...the "sustainable' ad prices dont matter ...you now want to totally control the ads, the content

Unfortunately many many members do NOT have credit cards to shop online, or do not want to shop online.. or they dont have the money

much of what you say is "theoretical">> show us the "practical" stuff...show us the way YOU would sell ads...you can even make a commission, what is so offensive bout that?

[mlev]

I must also say that I sometimes wonder if anyone other than this small group really even thinks this has any importance..

most markets self correct themselves..that is why the 100/1000/100000 sites are dying out....

JMO>> without the ptrs these lower tier se would have NO traffic
the fact that people do come back and renew their ads says that they are making money

They do keep running the same ads...they are presumably not babies or mentally ill or whatever, so we have to assume they are selling some viagra and getting some people to try their casinos or signup to sue over vioxx or whatever
If he finds the results bad, I guess he wont advertise there huh?

.if these small 3rd tier feeds and engines shut down these advertisers would not have a comparable place to advertise...do you think these advertisers would go to google and pay their prices? I dont think so....

without the ptrs these se would shut down and the very advertisers you worry so much about will have NO place to advertise

Freebie, right now you make me laugh.

those 3rd tier feed the PTR are 3rd tier.
Where do you think they get their results.
From bigger feeds. maybe not Google, but from a 2nd tier who gets it from either Google or another big fish. (not many of those)

Now based on your last few posts, you seem to encourage members to click these darn SE links you get. I thought you were totally against "forcing" them.
No SE advertisers, no ads, no revenue.

Here we go again.
A site that has nothing else to offer, has nothing to offer.
Why remain opened ?

Now, lets talk about the real original bidder, the real advertiser.
They keep advertising because they still make money.
Sure, viagra sells. Lots of money there.

Maybe you should open a pharmacy, you would make even more profit.

Instead, PTR, 3rd tier SE have learn to "leech" out of this multi-million dollar business.

Since we cannot hurt them so much, it should be OK !!!

Oh, lets not forget these Google....
If a real big advertiser bids to have his site in the high ranking, so he can sell his product, and still make profit, he will still advertise.
The small guy on the corner, who may not have the same budget to feed the leeches, while trying to compete, is out of the game.
As for Google and brothers, the more you guys click, the quicker their customers' click are consumed, the faster they need to buy more.
So do you really think Google and brothers care what the blind PTR clickers are doing ?

Yes they do, keep it up !

For every 1/10¢ you make, Google will get his $1 or $2
the 2nd tier will get a share
the 3rd tier will get a share

So is it the PTR's PO's fault ?
So is the member's fault ?
So is it the 3rd tier SE's fault ?
So is it the 2nd tier SE's fault ?
Oh, is it Google and brother's fault ?

Naaaaa !
It can only be the original bidder's fault.

Come on !
Get your head out the sand and call it for what it is !
People can be so greedy and desperate they will make themselves believe whatever suit them at the time.

INCENTIVIZED SEARCHES IS A FRAUD !
from the members, to the PTR POs, to every level of SE

[bellestraker]

With all this power, control and influence you seem to think you have Belle, why haven't you made these deadbeat POs cough up the cash they owe?


.




I think most people would have taken that post as partial tongue in cheek but of course..Not ani.

However as you are interested..I not only THINK I have all that power..I KNOW I do.

I have spent most of my life standing behind what I say and do ani..( Be it good,bad or indifferent) NOT turning my bad choices around to make them the fault of someone else.

btw..How do you know what ( if anything) I need to collect??Or are you asking that I go play collector for your bad choices.

Thats your job ani..I will take care of any monies I am owed and I suggest you can do likewise.

Once again..same old song.

[freebiesite]

Oh how noble...LOL

Gee..maybe you ought to go talk to the top tiers then..
while we scrabble over pennies i imagine google etc do quite well....LOL

See what they tell you

The orginal idea of this thread was to talk about sites that do or do not follow the se rules....as Lil had posted about sites that force searches or cut off members who do not search

but as usual it evoved into another grandstand,lecture etc...

not that most want to hear it or even care..I am not responsbible for people's advertising mistakes...in fact, to be honest,for most people to advertise "real products" on any ptr is pretty much a waste, and even more of a waste on a truly "international" ptr

but you want to read ads for "real products" LOL

[AnI4AnI]

I not only THINK I have all that power..I KNOW I do.


Hey, I think that's great, Belle. As you emphasized earlier, you can control others and get them to "see things your way", even when the vehicle is being driven by someone else you tell them if they don't like it, they can find another ride. So, I figure since you have the power to do all that then you should channel it for the greater good and get these POs to pay up. That was not an invitation to re-experience all of your twisted, sinister, pathetic insults. You bragged about how wonderfully powerful you are and I simply suggested a productive use for it. So, how 'bout it? Start with Linder and go all the way down the list of deadbeat POs who you seem to think you can control. I look forward to a rash of payments. :)

[AnI4AnI]

I am not responsbible for people's advertising mistakes

Interesting attitude. Does that apply across the board or only when it favors you? Does it also mean that members aren't responsible for your mistakes so you shouldn't be taking back money you accidently sent? Couldn't they use the same line of reasoning and say they aren't responsible for your mistakes so they should be able to profit from your errors?

If a pawn shop owner knows he is receiving stolen property, is he responsible to take some form of action? Perhaps notify the police in order to stop the event from occuring or do they just tell everyone they are not responsible for other people's mistakes and happily make money from the scheme?

You seem to have a knack for ridiculing logic even when it smacks you in the face. If that's how you wish to portray yourself, so be it but as a business owner, you should be more prone to taking an analytical approach to these issues, instead of as you say all the time, shooting the messenger.

[bellestraker]

Hey, I think that's great, Belle. As you emphasized earlier, you can control others and get them to "see things your way", even when the vehicle is being driven by someone else you tell them if they don't like it, they can find another ride. So, I figure since you have the power to do all that then you should channel it for the greater good and get these POs to pay up. That was not an invitation to re-experience all of your twisted, sinister, pathetic insults. You bragged about how wonderfully powerful you are and I simply suggested a productive use for it. So, how 'bout it? Start with Linder and go all the way down the list of deadbeat POs who you seem to think you can control. I look forward to a rash of payments. :)


MY twisted insults.lol.

The "vehicle" in this case ani is a gptr site. ( Looks around to see if I really am at the Indy) but you are right..In the same situation in a REAL vehicle..I would also do MY BEST to get out..under my own POWERS.

I never did put much stock in gathering forces.

However..I see all this has nothing to do with cars..or even search engines for that matter.

We are back to Linder although for the life of me I can not see where he fits into it.

But then he fits into everything in anis world..doesnt he??.

Lets get back to searches shall we??

Have a good one

Belle

btw..

Did you mistake me for a bill collector?..

Just wondering Why would YOU look forward to a rash of payments if I use these mighty powers which you have read into my post to recover what is owed to ME.??

[AnI4AnI]

Yes, Belle...the "vehicle" used in this discussion was a metaphor for PTR programs. I thought that was self-evident. So why all the cofusion now? You said you could control the "driver" or in other words, the program owner....so what's with all the non-related comments?

You stated that you KNEW you could control them...so if that's the case, maybe you could get them to pay everyone up, since you have all that influence. Are you saying that you would only use it for your own self?

[bellestraker]

Yes, Belle...the "vehicle" used in this discussion was a metaphor for PTR programs. I thought that was self-evident. So why all the cofusion now? You said you could control the "driver" or in other words, the program owner....so what's with all the non-related comments?

You stated that you KNEW you could control them...so if that's the case, maybe you could get them to pay everyone up, since you have all that influence. Are you saying that you would only use it for your own self?



Maybe you missed the word OR in the following sentence but I really doubt it

Quote from my post.
If I dont want to play the game..I can always "convince the driver" to see things my way OR find another ride home.


In other words if I can not change things ..then it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to either get out in time OR to lose/collect if I dont.

Not YOUR responsibility ani...MINE.

and in your case YOURS.

Nowhere did I say or imply that I had any capabilities to make anyone pay YOU..
However...should I ever lose money to (your term) a deadbeat..I CAN and WILL use every effort to make sure I collect it.

Some choose to spend their time sitting in the forums bashing in hopes that monies owed will fall from the sky..I find that a bit like buying a lottery ticket ( with much worse odds)

Have a good one

Belle


I have neither the words nor the desire to play your little word game so I will leave you to amuse yourself and impress whomever you are making the effort for.

[AnI4AnI]

I know what you said, Belle. You don't have to repeat it over and over in every post.

As for your bill collector comment, you didn't imply that you enjoyed harassing people at all hours of the day and night by calling them on the phone, hunting for that elusive credit card payment that will never, ever appear. You implied you could control people, that you had the power, that you KNEW you had the power to control others. Apparently you prefer to use your omnipotent powers for your own benefit and that's perfectly fine. I just thought it could be used to help mankind in their quest for truth, righteousness, justice and payouts.

Most of your other comments can be prescribed to "acting out" behavior, I guess...in which case I won't qualify them with responses.

[freebiesite]

Yes, Belle...the "vehicle" used in this discussion was a metaphor for PTR programs. I thought that was self-evident. So why all the cofusion now? You said you could control the "driver" or in other words, the program owner....so what's with all the non-related comments?

You stated that you KNEW you could control them...so if that's the case, maybe you could get them to pay everyone up, since you have all that influence. Are you saying that you would only use it for your own self?

Why are you continuing to nit pick a casual, lighthearted statement??

I think we all know that Belle was making an attempt at a joke?

As for your comment of "only use it for yourself">> gee again how noble..

frankly not everyone takes this stuff as seriously as YOU do...there are more important "noble" causes in the world...disaster victims in gulf, central american mudslide, quake in pakistan, and more

this noble crusader stuff is wearing very thin....yes, it is great to be able to teach and warn people about problem sites, rip offs...but to try to force everyone to think like you is getting very tiresome

Yes, sometimes Belle can be stubborn, or annoy you..but in this case she clearly made a joke.....no caped crusader is needed to wrestle her joke into the ground.

[AnI4AnI]

Freebie, you mean all of those extremely lengthy rants you've posted against this, that and the other thing and against every single program owner who did something you didn't like was and is perfectly fine but when I express concern about internet fraud, I'm grandstanding or taking things too serious?

How come you don't want them to shoot the messenger but it's ok if you do when you don't particularly like what they have to say?

And lastly, was there any thing to justify click fraud other than the usual casino and viagra argument. That's the thing that seems to be wearing thin. I would imagine a lot of people would like to hear how someone who rants and raves about everyone else can then run a business where 99% of the income is dependent upon unethical, immoral and perhaps even illegal means.

Why don't YOU go get real advertisers?

Why don't YOU go ask Google about it?

Why don't YOU go find out if all SE advertisers are running casinos?

Why don't YOU open a normal online enterprise then start paying to advertise in search engines?

Why don't YOU see how fast you'd be complaining about poor traffic quality?

Why don't YOU stop deflecting and attacking, and deal with the issues?

[lil crusader]

Sigh.....I haven't had a chance to read everything in here yet since my head has been pounding the last 24 hours or so from a major sinus infection and I haven't been online much, but what I have read makes me think this thread has veered way off course from what I originally intended.

I was only ever talking about programs like qualiyt-cash, dayslook, biz-bizs, golfmails, etc....the ones that openly tell members they'll be rewarded for doing searches and punished for not doing them, even to the point of being called cheaters....this was never meant to be about all programs and all search ads.

[mlev]

Sigh.....I haven't had a chance to read everything in here yet since my head has been pounding the last 24 hours or so from a major sinus infection and I haven't been online much, but what I have read makes me think this thread has veered way off course from what I originally intended.

I was only ever talking about programs like qualiyt-cash, dayslook, biz-bizs, golfmails, etc....the ones that openly tell members they'll be rewarded for doing searches and punished for not doing them, even to the point of being called cheaters....this was never meant to be about all programs and all search ads.
Hi Lil, you are right.
It went further then you originally put forward.

But then, from the start, I think it would have been expected.

Incentivized search clicks are a sensible subject.
How wrong does something need to be before people admit a wrong ?

You specifically brought forward probably the ultimate wrong about searches.
More like PO's attitude and actions.
If these programs would act the same way, but not necessarly regarding searches, the reaction to your post would have probably taken another turn.

[mlev]

Oh how noble...LOL

Gee..maybe you ought to go talk to the top tiers then..
while we scrabble over pennies i imagine google etc do quite well....LOL

See what they tell you

The orginal idea of this thread was to talk about sites that do or do not follow the se rules....as Lil had posted about sites that force searches or cut off members who do not search

but as usual it evoved into another grandstand,lecture etc...

not that most want to hear it or even care..I am not responsbible for people's advertising mistakes...in fact, to be honest,for most people to advertise "real products" on any ptr is pretty much a waste, and even more of a waste on a truly "international" ptr

but you want to read ads for "real products" LOL

You're right Freebie.
I may have gone further then the initial intent of this thread.
I am also sorry I happened to reply to your post.
Just that since you are a PO, and kind of given excuses to other POs and the SE advertisers, I felt I could not leave it as such.

If PTR only relies on searches, or SE advertisers relies solely on PTR to get people to click searches (most unrelated to user's search request), Yes, as you bring it up, maybe they should just close.

In any case, as I mentioned in my previous reply to Lil, sorry for getting offtopic. You as a PO should maybe do the same.

[Josh]

Sigh.....I haven't had a chance to read everything in here yet since my head has been pounding the last 24 hours or so from a major sinus infection and I haven't been online much, but what I have read makes me think this thread has veered way off course from what I originally intended.

I was only ever talking about programs like qualiyt-cash, dayslook, biz-bizs, golfmails, etc....the ones that openly tell members they'll be rewarded for doing searches and punished for not doing them, even to the point of being called cheaters....this was never meant to be about all programs and all search ads.

Add surprisemails to your list...

And get well, k? :)

[AnI4AnI]

Pam, I hope you're feeling better soon.

I just don't see it as being off-topic. I explained my reasoning in the beginning of the thread. Even though some people abuse their positions more than others, and to us, we see degrees of fraud being committed, to the casual observer, it's all the same. To an innocent SE advertiser who has no idea that PTR even exists, it's all the same...a scam set in place to rob them of their advertising budget.

And to me, with any uncomfortable subject in life, in order to deal with it effectively, we need to focus primarily on the issues, more so than the individual behavior, since the end result is to hopefully impact an overall change.

As far as being criticized for my apparently tiresome crusades, I've adamantly opposed the inter-mingling of search engines with PTR from the very beginning so I think that qualifies me to state my opinions, which also happen to coincide with many professionals who aren't necessarily slaves to this industry, or even remote fans of it.

I have no intention of adjusting my principles to better suit those who are heavily involved with deception, even though that's what seems to be the fashion these days.

[lil crusader]

I'm withdrawing my initial idea -- it's purpose has gotten lost in the ongoing debate concerning all search ads.

I'm not a fan of searches - never have been and never will be - but I was only trying to single out the blatant "click fraud is cool" sites that are the current rage. I guess maybe that isn't possible.

[Josh]

I'm withdrawing my initial idea -- it's purpose has gotten lost in the ongoing debate concerning all search ads.

I'm not a fan of searches - never have been and never will be - but I was only trying to single out the blatant "click fraud is cool" sites that are the current rage. I guess maybe that isn't possible.

I still believe that a list of those specific sites is a good idea, and an explanation on what happens in the system will enable a visitor to learn and to see what makes the clock tick.

I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone else. :p Color me a dull shade of absurd. :)

[freebiesite]

You know...I AM TOTALLY getting sick of the personal attacks from ani

and I will no longer link to the "boycott" list here unless this stops

if we were to suddenly get rid of search portal ads, run responsibly, we might as well get rid of all ptr's...except for the 5 or 6 big ones...like myponts, inboxdollars

if sending people here means they get pounded by ani..thanks but NO thanks..I am dammed tired of her personal attacks

JMO>> Like cigarettes are "legal">> so are search portal ads..

i happen to dislike smelly cancer causing cigarettes

you happen to dislike search ads...but if run legal I think they are ok

This forum needs to make up it's mind..maybe ani's blog should have it's own forum for like minded people...where she can also continue to collect "donations" on paypal...hey what are Those for anyhow ani??
you know sometimes google runs casino ads...autosurf ads..maybe you should NOT run those...there might be click fraud

since you have no expenses with a free blog I dont know why you need donations anyhow.

I do know I am very very tired of the many personal attacks directed at me by gypsy...um...ani...

I have a feeling your policy is "scorched earth"..you want to run every ptr into the ground while holding onto "your" morals...LOL

well YOU will suceed in running people off of here ani...you have NO solutions, just your in the face retoric

[bellestraker]

[QUOTE=freebiesite



well YOU will suceed in running people off of here ani...you have NO solutions, just your in the face retoric[/QUOTE]




That has already been happening for the past year. If you do not completely agree then you have two choices.
Leave or Do Not Post.

Even the slap shod new forums have a lot more people than GPTB. That in itself should say something.

Back OT.
Apologies to lil for derailing your thread. I also think a list and the reasons are a good idea.
I often hear people say that they see a site on the boycott or watch list and usually ask WHY?..At least with a list and an explanation it would be easier to understand the reasons.

Making no effort to find any middle ground is another issue which puts a stop to many ideas.



Belle

[AnI4AnI]

Funny, I thought I was the one being targeted for personal attacks because I didn't play the game. I'm sorry if anyone was under the impression that I was here to win a personality contest or something. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I can be bullied into complacency because it's never worked on me before and it never will.

I don't even have anything to do with running search ads yet I've gone and hunted down all sorts of information about click fraud just so that I'd be able to know what I was talking about.

Pam, I was hoping you'd join in on the discussion since it's your thread. I was looking forward to reading your posts. I'd like to read about your thoughts and ideas but I'm a little concerned that by having a list of blatantly obnoxious sites, this forum might be setting itself up to be accused of hypocrasy. Unfortunately, whenever someone tries to do something useful and helpful, they get bombarded with insults and accusations. That seems to be a natural response in this industry. Shout down the do-gooders. Talk about running people off. I can name quite a few good people who are no longer around and it certainly wasn't me kicking them to the curb.

Freebie, you seem to be running out of ways to admonish me. Now you're deeply concerned with my blog? That wouldn't be a deflection, would it? Because it has nothing to do with this conversation other than that I am doing what search engine affiliates are supposed to do, follow the rules. Do I not have a right to promote my site? Do I not have the right to get it seen so that people will know it's there? Are you saying I am not supposed to promote it? Is that what your beef is with it?

I was pretty quiet for a long time about you and your rants, in fact sometimes I even supported you and gave you the benefit of the doubt but I'm not going to sink to your level by conjuring up insults and personal attacks which have nothing to do with the topic. If you can't handle talking about search engine click fraud then that isn't my issue, it's yours. You need to try to deal with it instead of blaming everyone who doesn't agree with you.

[lil crusader]

I pretty much said what I needed to say in my opening post -- I saw a problem developing and thought this forum might be able to help with it. I didn't intend for it to take off into a full-blown debate over the pros and cons of search ads in general or to lead into negative comments against each other. My concern is with the Asian program owners who are behind the junk search programs and I thought I made that clear. Also, to be honest, I really haven't felt like posting anything more than I have over the weekend.

I didn't start this thread to fight with anyone or criticize anyone other than those POs I've already mentioned. I don't know what else I can add to that.

[freebiesite]

I pretty much said what I needed to say in my opening post -- I saw a problem developing and thought this forum might be able to help with it. I didn't intend for it to take off into a full-blown debate over the pros and cons of search ads in general or to lead into negative comments against each other. My concern is with the Asian program owners who are behind the junk search programs and I thought I made that clear. Also, to be honest, I really haven't felt like posting anything more than I have over the weekend.

I didn't start this thread to fight with anyone or criticize anyone other than those POs I've already mentioned. I don't know what else I can add to that.

Hi Lil..hope you feel better...and sorry this deteriorated into the usual soapbox junk

I know what you are talking about the sites that "force" searches or have "honest members' and only send ads to those that are searching..mostly i think they own search engines therefore they are able to "track" the IP's and see who is searching or not...and yes, they do seem to be against the rules of the search engines and portals

However, some bitter people want to shut down all ptrs...I thought the purpose of this forum was to identify sites that pay vs sites that rip people off.

lets just stop all ads, all ptrs..except for the chosen few that ani likes..right? cause really ...any site running search portal ad is subject to her nasty preaching right??? what is the point

JMO Rob really needs to rethink this site..I am no longer listing the boycott list on my site, not linking here any more..all due to these attacks...
..i dont need this sort of personal attack every time I post here from one person

I encourage others to write to Rob and ask that this thread hijack junk be stopped..there is NO dialogue here anymore..just selfrighteous lectures, name calling and Joan of Arc posturing

[AnI4AnI]

Hey, I'd be happy to start a new thread to discuss degrees of fraud and whether or not each infraction deserves a different response. Doesn't matter to me.

I just seem to recall a huge to-do when the forum boycotted a program when there were a handful of complaints that didn't appear to be legitimate. I can imagine if we started picking and choosing and playing favorites when the subject is something that most, if not all PTR sites are involved with.

I can just see the playground brawls now.

As for trying to run me out of town, Freebie...I don't think that's going to work. I can understand why you wouldn't want anyone to read these threads, including the one where YouthInAsia lays it all out on the table, too but to use me for an excuse to stop linking to this site is kind of unfair, not that I wouldn't expect that but still....

[freebiesite]

Hey, I'd be happy to start a new thread to discuss degrees of fraud and whether or not each infraction deserves a different response. Doesn't matter to me.

I just seem to recall a huge to-do when the forum boycotted a program when there were a handful of complaints that didn't appear to be legitimate. I can imagine if we started picking and choosing and playing favorites when the subject is something that most, if not all PTR sites are involved with.

I can just see the playground brawls now.

As for trying to run me out of town, Freebie...I don't think that's going to work. I can understand why you wouldn't want anyone to read these threads, including the one where YouthInAsia lays it all out on the table, too but to use me for an excuse to stop linking to this site is kind of unfair, not that I wouldn't expect that but still....


Yeah..keyword is MOST ptr's are involved in this..therefore you would ban all ptrs..right?? Might as well shut down this forum...

FYI>>> the rates paid to search portal affiliates is way down from the early and perhaps unrealistic rates...many of the same advertisers are continuing to advertise

why dont you go to the sites for webmasters/affiliate program users/owners and search engine advertisers and owners if you care so deeply about this "noble cause"??

I thought this site was to help people avoid ptr programs that are scams...
not to nit pick each ad they run....

however...IF you are allowed to pursue your bitter little crusade Rob might as well shut this site down period

if you can sit there and yammer at me as a theif and whatever other libelous names you call me, then you might as well call most of the other gazillion ptr's the same..there is a small list of sites that are 'search free" ..but...who knows..they may run an ad for an autosurf...huh??

[freecashspace]

There are a LOT of PTRs that blatantly promote click-fraud in a number of different ways. Deleting, or threatening to delete, members who don't do enough 'valid searches.' Sending those who do fewer searches fewer emails. Setting up special 'search' groups and sending them more emails, or paying them more. Paying 'good searchers' first.

Sending out Admin emails reminding members to 'support the advertisers' so they'll buy more ads. (Particularly obvious when the only advertisers they've got are search engine affiliates). Sending out or setting up 'support links' that lead to search engines -- not hard for members to get the hint that the only way there'll be enough money to pay them is if they do those 'support' searches.

Making special rules to suit the search engine affiliates. Different rules for members from 'search approved' countries and those from other countries. Different rules for members whose ISPs use proxy servers.

The way I see it, any PTR that does anything that indicates that ads for search portals are special -- are treated differently to other ads -- is promoting and perpetuating click-fraud.

And yeah, I'm pretty OK with the idea that, if these PTRs can't find a way to survive without promoting and perpetuating click-fraud, then it would be just as well if they paid out their membes and shut down.

Cheers,

Wil

[AnI4AnI]

Geez, Wil, watch out. You might get run out of town if you're not careful. I made the mistake of assuming all should be fair in love, war and PTR but apparently some people are above the law and shouldn't have to deal with mean, nasty, idealistic crusaders like myself.

[Josh]

Whoops, somehow missed your post here. It's a good post, though, and it deserves a response.

SE portals are not going to go away from PTR (as a whole) until either the value becomes far to low to bring the advertiser a profit, or the SEs step up and do something about it. In that sense, the people who have the biggest impact are the members - if they are willing to be bought for 1/4 cent, then the SE advertisers will continue to be ripped.

Unfortunately, we've seen that many people are willing to do that.

I believe that information readily available on this site, regarding how the process works, would go a long way toward helping some of those who truly do not know the inner-workings of each 1/4 cent click. From what I have seen, quite a few people actually do not know.

Pointing out those specific programs which actually do request or demand more forced searches will go a long way to leading people in the right direction, as well. Sure, it won't be a comprehensive guide of every site where click fraud has ever occurred, but it would be a stepping stone, and combined with the reading material on-site, would provide a good path for members to make a truly informed decision.

If that could lessen the amount of "human click bots" by giving them some information that they previously did not comprehend, then it would be a good start, and may even lead to lesser results from search ads, which may eventually cause some sites to slow those down, or not use them at all.

Maybe I'm sounding too optimistic, but that's actually not how I'm viewing this. I don't see it as a permanent end to click fraud, because that won't happen overnight, no matter what we do. It is pertinent to make a first step, and it is an imperitive that requires attention, now.

Well there is a difference I think. I'm in a couple programs where there are a lot of search ads. The only time I make a valid search is if there IS something I am looking for or if I see something that interests me. Otherwise, I let the timer run out. I have tried researching with some of these portals because I am a research-a-holic, but the results often are not what I was trying to get info on. In that case, I don't go any further. Sometimes, I get some pretty interesting results. Now if people wouldn't make blind valid searches, I think the search advertisers would promote less and things might level out a bit.

The programs I am in have never ever mentioned bad results or tried to make members feel responsible for same. Why should these good programs be painted with the same brush as those who punish their members for not making bogus searches?

I think its up to the MEMBERS to refrain from making bogus searches just for the sake of return business. Its like a falling card effect and I say it really rests on the members to be responsible in the way they handle searches. If there is balance in one section of the chain, then that will force balance in the other sections/links of the chain.

Sure it might mean less $$$$, and it might take longer to reach payout, if searches were done this way, but it would be the honourable way to handle this.

OT - How many know, right off the bat, what TV oldie but goodie (no SEARCHING now) my sig is connected with. Oh the memories!