PROHIBIT HYIPs [Archive] - GPTBoycott Discussion Forum

bellestraker

27th July 2005, 02:43

I hate the dam things but would not allowing them in sigs simply send the newbie off to another link at another site to join.Thereby possibly missing the opportunity to let someone know exactly what they are getting into.

Edited to say..Not necessarily allowing them to be advertised but just allowing non personal discussion where no one is being belittled for asking.

I know there has been several threads started with the purpose of educating and mostly they have turned into opposing opinions and for a newbie I really wonder if they actually know for sure if they are illegal and why they will not work.

There have been some really good articles written lately and I wonder if writing one without opinions but listing the reasons why it is illegal and explaining ( by the numbers) why they dont work...would that help to let people know.

Many in gptr seem to be either not familiar with the concept or not understanding what is wrong with riding a winning horse until he doesnt win any more.

I have heard many say that EVERYONE knows that they are a scam..but from some of the posts...I wonder.

Maybe everyone who has spent any length of time in forums or in the business world may know but I think there are many here who have done neither.

If the articles were a bit more front and centre..and included some of this info then possibly the new members would not get bogged down in...and confused by the rangling from both sides.

Just an idea.

Belle

freespirit

27th July 2005, 14:38

what is an HYIP? :stupid: I get alot of spam emails containing HYIP in the subject, but just send them straight to spam!, its something to do with egold isnt it?

Josh

27th July 2005, 15:44

what is an HYIP? :stupid: I get alot of spam emails containing HYIP in the subject, but just send them straight to spam!, its something to do with egold isnt it?

HYIP stands for "High-Yield Investment Plan" - which basically means you're putting in money in order to (hopefully) get out a good deal more than you have given. 99.9% of the ones you'll see on the 'Net are either a Ponzi or a flat out scam.

They (HYIPs, not just Ponzis) are illegal in the US, which is why you won't see such transactions take place here. Many other countries prohibit them as well, although some HYIPs of the offline type do take place in other nations (Swiss bank accounts are known for a good reason). In a bit of difference, though, they are never for pittances of $10, and are always based on short-term exchanging/selling of assets of some type, unless, of course, they are just another Ponzi. Even if they are non-Ponzi, "legitimate" HYIPs, there's always a good chance that the guy using your money will lose out, or that you'll simply never see a dime of it again.

freespirit

28th July 2005, 18:20

thanks for sharing that :)

freecashspace

29th July 2005, 02:41

Should this site prohibit the advertising of HYIPs? It seems many people are only joining this site to promote the latest scam, many of them are autosurfs that aren't paying and hyips. I report them when it's blatantly obvious but I'm wondering...can we at least prevent newbies from using any referral links in their siggys for a given time and can we prohibit the promotion of hyips, randomizers since they're illegal?
Sounds like a good idea to me. Promoting ponzi and pyramid scams is illegal in many places, not to mention the fact that it's just A Bad Bad Thing.

And to keep people complaining that they should be able to promote this one or that one by saying "Yeah, but this one isn't a scam! They've paid me $3,685,329.14!!!" we could just have a blanket rule banning the promotion of all of them.

If they're looking to recruit more suckers, they can always go to GPF. They must love those kinds of scams over there. They accept advertising for them (better hope Paypal doesn't find out), they just created a new General Discussion folder just for autosurfs, and they've got a downline builder dedicated specifically for people to promote autosurfs and other HYIPs, bubble games, and all sorts of other illegal ponzi scams.

In fact, it looks to me like the owner and staff of GPF themselves are promoting illegal scams by providing that downline builder folder and by running ads for them.

Cheers,

Wil

barraco28

29th July 2005, 21:27

Hi there, I have received a spammish e-mail through here from someone from HYIP. I have notified them that someone there spammed me and they would like to know who yet I have already deleted the e-mail. I am sure I was not the only person here sent this e-mail. If someone has the users name of the person who done this please let me know so that I can tell them. Thanks

cupcake

29th July 2005, 23:40

Sounds like a good idea to me. Promoting ponzi and pyramid scams is illegal in many places, not to mention the fact that it's just A Bad Bad Thing.

And to keep people complaining that they should be able to promote this one or that one by saying "Yeah, but this one isn't a scam! They've paid me $3,685,329.14!!!" we could just have a blanket rule banning the promotion of all of them.

If they're looking to recruit more suckers, they can always go to GPF. They must love those kinds of scams over there. They accept advertising for them (better hope Paypal doesn't find out), they just created a new General Discussion folder just for autosurfs, and they've got a downline builder dedicated specifically for people to promote autosurfs and other HYIPs, bubble games, and all sorts of other illegal ponzi scams.

In fact, it looks to me like the owner and staff of GPF themselves are promoting illegal scams by providing that downline builder folder and by running ads for them.

Cheers,

Wil

Isn't that funny? It's like a nightmare that I want to wake up from. How can seemingly intelligent people not only tolerate ponzis and HYIP's, but aid in promoting them?

Cupcake

AnI4AnI

30th July 2005, 22:23

"PYRAMID SCHEMES" (http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm)

The above link will explain why pyramid schemes are illegal and should be a wake-up call to this forum as well as others that they may be taking unecessary risks by allowing the promotion of them. At the very least, this forum needs to cleanse itself of all these non-PTR scams and foolishness if it is to remain credible.

This forum needs to take a serious stand against fraud. Why wash the dishes if the rest of the house is in shambles?

wagdoll

3rd August 2005, 19:23

I don't understand why it seems ok to promote some scams on gptboycott and not others? Aren't they still allowed in downline builder threads here as well as in signatures?

There are some sites online that explain why hyip's and hyip autosurfers etc that you find online are being run as ponzi's and not legitimate investment programs and that ponzi's are illegal in most countries including the USA and UK where I believe this site is based?

http://www.my-online-income-streams.com/par/15w/paid-autosurf-ponzi-scheme-scams-2.shtml

http://townsend-law.netfirms.com/hyip.htm

http://www.thenettle.com/doublers/truth.html

So what is the rationale behind allowing these scams to be promoted on gptb?

Scams in our area of the net are not just about ptr's or traffic exchanges or what it might have been five years ago, these seem to be the most popular scams now and are at least 'up there' with the $100 click ptr sites, if not worse imho.

I think Belle has a good idea there that if the management of gptb doesn't feel it appropriate or necessary to ban their promotion here that an article to explain it all clearly with why they are illegal and the risks you take in joining and promoting them.

AnI4AnI

4th August 2005, 10:25

I nominate Belle to write the article. :)

wagdoll

5th August 2005, 20:30

What am I missing? I don't see a hissy fit or any insults or pa's in that sentence?

Who said this? " Oh so Belle ...you think hyips are a good thing"

Has someone deleted a post or something, cos up til that point I thought it was just a good discussion? Now we are back to throwing personal insults at anyone who makes a suggestion we don't like??

AnI4AnI

5th August 2005, 20:51

No idea what she's babbling about now, Wags but I posted these links in another thread and figured they'd be better served here:

ACTIONS you can take when you have experienced losses from MLM participation (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/actions.htm)
PYRAMID SCHEME ALERT (http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/home.html)

bellestraker

5th August 2005, 22:57

Edited as off topic

bulldog10

5th August 2005, 23:07

I kinda thought it was ok too but it obviously was not.

Maybe you missed a few other posts as well wag...Like the ones this afternoon where ani is having a good laugh ( I believe it was with YIA and Bulldog) about my writing the article.

Yes this is in another thread so may appear off. However as soon as ani came in after i posted she chose to bring it into the other thread.

No it was not said .meaning..she would LIKE to see me write it but you will read it any way you like and ani will continue with subtle put downs.

I do not choose to explain myself again.

You gave an opinion in the other thread and now you wish to go back and reread my earlier posts when it is pretty apparent you see only what you wish to see.

Just as your idea that one insult was long ago so that wipes out many recent.

Not sure if this is over my problem with Rod and really dont care.
Take it to admin if thats your choice but please stop pretending that you see only one side of this.

Have a good one

Belle

My name mentioned.. yes, I would like to see you write an article. I tried, failed miserably, it's much harder, IMO, to write an article.. a good article, than it is to criticize someone else's. You have strong opinions, belle, why not try to write an article and share those thoughts with others?

Really, to use your own words, who is having a "hissy fit", and who needs to "get over themselves"?

wagdoll

5th August 2005, 23:18

Maybe you missed a few other posts as well wag...Like the ones this afternoon where ani is having a good laugh ( I believe it was with YIA and Bulldog) about my writing the article.

This was the first thread I looked at tonight, so that did look out of place compared to what i read here.

You gave an opinion in the other thread and now you wish to go back and reread my earlier posts when it is pretty apparent you see only what you wish to see.

I haven't gone back to read any of your earlier posts after writing that in the other thread?

Apparent I only see what I wish to see? I thought I responded to you in the other thread on that. I said that you have made some great points in some threads that I sat here agreeing with you 100%. And I criticised something ani said. If you still think that is seeing only what I want to see then that is up to you I guess.

Not sure if this is over my problem with Rod and really dont care.

I don't know what Rod has to do with this, don't tell me I missed more in that thread lol.

What I said in this thread was because your post seemed 'out of place' compared to what was said. Nothing more than that.

I thought we had one thread here where we were going to stay on subject and not ***** about each other. I guess I was wrong.

If others were criticising you over writing an article on hyip's for this forum, which was your idea and I said I thought was a good idea (but I guess you don't see if I say anything positive about you?) then I will say now, though I haven't read their comments that that sounds like a pointless and rude thing to do and they need to forget the past things you have said about them as well as you doing the same thing or if not forget, at least stop bringing it back up where it is not needed and doesn't move us forward.

bellestraker

5th August 2005, 23:28

Edited - off topic

AnI4AnI

6th August 2005, 00:44

Let me just explain something here.

I took Belle off Ignore the other day long enough to see what she posted after I made the suggestion. Then I put her back on Ignore, decided it was a relatively normal response (was rather pleasantly surprised) and proceeded to nominate her to write an article as I was hoping some of her research (if she chose to contribute) may reveal much of what we've been trying to say. Basically, I thought it was a good idea and that it might lead us all into a new phase of productivity.

Holding grudges isn't going to get anything accomplished.

While I'm at it, I think it bears mentioning that quite a few people take offense to my descriptions of events. When I generalize, I am NOT singling one or two individuals out to personally attack them. There is a big difference. Descriptive phrases in literature are everywhere. We categorize and generalize all the time. There's nothing wrong with presenting one's opinion if they are not making personal attacks on individuals.

Also, after spending countless months defending crooks and scammers, while others were trying to warn newbies, what grounds does one have to expect respect now? I don't quite get that. Some people's actions have caused the industry to deteriorate so why would I or anyone else be expected to treat these people with kid gloves?

Some people have admitted publically they had a change of heart and they have earned my respect even though we may not always agree....and sometimes we clash but we've developed a mutual respect for each other.

I've never expected anyone to agree with everything I've said. I've been wrong about things and have publically admitted it so forcing my opinion or expecting everyone to agree with me 100% of the time is ridiculous. I encourage debate. If you disagree with me, please feel free to present your side for everyone's consideration, but it really doesn't serve anyone's purpose to disagree with things just because you dislike the person then start with the same old personal attacks. It's just...weird. I don't have to like someone or everyone and they don't have to like me. It doesn't matter to me who's on the other side of that screen, if they have good, solid points, we will listen.

AnI4AnI

6th August 2005, 02:00

I'll be more than happy to put you back on Ignore after I post this.

I don't need to "show me or show us" anything. Take a look at your post history. People have been commenting that I have posted things about issues affecting the GPT community, totally unprovoked, and you seem to appear for one reason only and that is to get into a pissing match with me. It doesn't even matter what the issue is to you, Belle...you just want to argue.

I got your number, lady...I've had since the time you blasted this forum and argued endlessly with Lexie about the first ays boycott. You don't fool me...and that's what probably gets your goat the most. Stop obsessing about me and focus on the issues.

I've proven that I can do that now how about if you rise to the occassion?

Ok, back to Ignore....ta ta!

wagdoll

6th August 2005, 03:14

I guess we wont be doing anything about the promotion of the pyramids and ponzi's in this forum then. We're too busy with 'important' things.

:\

bulldog10

6th August 2005, 03:21

So sad...

mission accomplished :(

Josh

6th August 2005, 03:37

I guess we wont be doing anything about the promotion of the pyramids and ponzi's in this forum then. We're too busy with 'important' things.

:\

Certainly does seem like things get dragged from one thread to the next.

Until the hatchets are buried, I really don't see anything beneficial in the future here. Grudges from one thread are just merged into a new thread. It's an unfortunate fact that one step leads to another, but that doesn't need to mean that it extends beyond one thread. Sadly, that seems to be the case, regardless of the absolute uselessness of these arguments.

Are we going to have one thread where no one cleverly baits someone else? Does someone need to start the whole game up every time? Can we simply talk about the topic at hand, instead of having someone start by dangling a worm, then someone saying "What's wrong with your attitude?" only to have another proclaim "That's off topic!" followed by someone else saying "That's off topic and I don't like your hair!"

'Till then, I've got a PM box if anyone's interested in fighting fraud. :cool:

Evenin', all.

AnI4AnI

6th August 2005, 03:44

Well, everyone...be my guest. Have at it. I'm outa here. :music:

wagdoll

6th August 2005, 03:45

followed by someone else saying "That's off topic and I don't like your hair!"

:laugh:

You got all that spot on!

Tmarie99

6th August 2005, 08:08

Sounds like a good idea to me. Promoting ponzi and pyramid scams is illegal in many places, not to mention the fact that it's just A Bad Bad Thing.

And to keep people complaining that they should be able to promote this one or that one by saying "Yeah, but this one isn't a scam! They've paid me $3,685,329.14!!!" we could just have a blanket rule banning the promotion of all of them.

If they're looking to recruit more suckers, they can always go to GPF. They must love those kinds of scams over there. They accept advertising for them (better hope Paypal doesn't find out), they just created a new General Discussion folder just for autosurfs, and they've got a downline builder dedicated specifically for people to promote autosurfs and other HYIPs, bubble games, and all sorts of other illegal ponzi scams.

In fact, it looks to me like the owner and staff of GPF themselves are promoting illegal scams by providing that downline builder folder and by running ads for them.

Cheers,

Wil

And that's not happening here? Look around. There are some in the Referral threads, pal, and other posts have been made. So, it looks like the SAME thing is going on right here. Before you point fingers and making yourself look like an idiot, look in your own back yard.

freebiesite

6th August 2005, 11:47

I hope that we could do something about this without the usual infighting etc..

the fact that i am seeing lately is that the "baddies' of 6 months ago..the 100/2000/200000 $ fake programs with huge payouts and weird tos *you must recruit 1000 downline to get paid cash etc...seem to have drifted away..

people DID get the message..we dont see many of that sort of scam anymore

the shalom model came and went..seems only that failing getptr program bought into that bad idea, and even that is changing

sooo..what really may be the worst thing out there right now are these programs that require investments...

one thing about most of the ptrs, no matter how bad, they did NOT require money invested, only time....this new trend is even sadder

tho common sense would help a great deal...IF one could double money dont we think Donald Trump and wall street would be right in there, right at the top investing billions LOL?? INstead all of these "hot" learned investors seem to be teen guys often with a bad command of everyday english...oh wow that really makes one feel secure...yet they are the ones pluggin away here

in general, if you MUST put in money?? run..run ..and run faster JMO

bellestraker

6th August 2005, 15:10

I apologize for my part in pulling what is an important thread off track. In the hopes of allowing discussion to continue I have deleted my posts and have kept copies in case Rod wishes to see them.

Thanks

Belle

wagdoll

6th August 2005, 17:10

Belle, I think that was a good thing to do :)

I looked into the d/l builder here, and the only prohibition seems to be against boycotted programs. So those $100,000 payout and gauge terms programs would be allowed in there. Those might not be strictly illegal (though as it is hard to see how you could not call them scams that is questionable) while ponzi's and pyramids are illegal.

I wouldn't mind seeing those programs with the $100,000 payouts and $10 links to 10,000 members for $1 stopped from being put in the d/l builder or promoted here as well as ponzi's?

Tmarie99

6th August 2005, 17:18

True, Wagdoll. I'd like to see a ruling stating... "Anything even slightly resembling a pyramid is strictly prohibited."
A pyramid scheme by any other name is STILL reprehensible.

Josh

6th August 2005, 17:30

True, Wagdoll. I'd like to see a ruling stating... "Anything even slightly resembling a pyramid is strictly prohibited."
A pyramid scheme by any other name is STILL reprehensible.

Just playing DA here... :)

Imagine that I have this investment program, and it gives a "reasonable" (trying to keep my poker face here :p ) ROI, only around 200% per year.

Now, my site is funded and supported by a business (think Topgu...oh...wait...), and not only can I pay out my members, but I even profit off of this.

You may say that this is a Ponzi, but look at the situation. You also say StudioTraffic is a Ponzi, and even if it were to collapse today, it has been running for two years! Given the extreme differential between 265% profit and 100% profit, my site would last for at least 8 years, even if it were a Ponzi. Of course, it's not, and you have no reason to believe it is until something can prove otherwise.

Therefore, you have no reason to prohibit my site on your forum, unless you have some specific point to beat me on.

bellestraker

6th August 2005, 17:32

True, Wagdoll. I'd like to see a ruling stating... "Anything even slightly resembling a pyramid is strictly prohibited."
A pyramid scheme by any other name is STILL reprehensible.

I wonder if its possible to include some of the links explaining what a pyramid is...and then list the sites who fall in that category.

I imagine there would be many who will not want certain sites included but if the criteria is clearly laid out and strictly followed..it may be possible.

Even if a point is shown many times it is often hidden among many posts and I recall as a newbie having NO idea how to find my way around.

However it seemed much easier to search thread titles and find a specific issue so maybe having it in the forefront may help.

off topic.
I'm not sure if there is a really simple explanation of how to find things in forums but if not..it may be a good idea.

Belle

Tmarie99

6th August 2005, 17:35

Josh

6th August 2005, 17:38

Why are you directing that to me? I have not said anything about Ponzi, have no frickin' idea what ponzi is. I KNOW for a fact that these HYIPs are insustainable and will all collapse owing bunches of people bundles of money.

I was playing Devil's Advocate. For anything to happen we need to have an answer to arguments against our cause, as is always the case. For that reason, I was trying to stimulate discussion going both ways. :)

Edit:

A Ponzi is a form of a pyramid scheme, and is exactly what HYIPs are. :)

bellestraker

6th August 2005, 17:46

Just playing DA here... :)

Imagine that I have this investment program, and it gives a "reasonable" (trying to keep my poker face here :p ) ROI, only around 200% per year.

Now, my site is funded and supported by a business (think Topgu...oh...wait...), and not only can I pay out my members, but I even profit off of this.

You may say that this is a Ponzi, but look at the situation. You also say StudioTraffic is a Ponzi, and even if it were to collapse today, it has been running for two years! Given the extreme differential between 265% profit and 100% profit, my site would last for at least 8 years, even if it were a Ponzi. Of course, it's not, and you have no reason to believe it is until something can prove otherwise.

Therefore, you have no reason to prohibit my site on your forum, unless you have some specific point to beat me on.

And...that is exactly where I get buffaloed as I simply do not know enough about the set up to respond to this type of situation.

I know I FEEL that they are bogus and I have the reasons for believing that firmly wrapped up in my own mind but when it comes time to defend the position...Duh.

I am sure some others have the same problem.

So..Is it???
If it is..Why??
If it Isnt...Why?

Thanks

Belle

Josh

6th August 2005, 18:25

And...that is exactly where I get buffaloed as I simply do not know enough about the set up to respond to this type of situation.

I know I FEEL that they are bogus and I have the reasons for believing that firmly wrapped up in my own mind but when it comes time to defend the position...Duh.

I am sure some others have the same problem.

So..Is it???
If it is..Why??
If it Isnt...Why?

Thanks

Belle

That is what ends up happing most of the time. You can yell at them about how Forex (or any "business" other than drug dealing) cannot possibly return that much, until you're blue in the face, but it won't make them budge an inch. Most of them know what the game is already, and they will see to it that no one exposes that, because it might mean less money for them!

They will always say that the money is being invested some way, even though we know that even if it is, it's not returning anywhere near the rate that is required. You might point out that if a bad month comes (in comparison to what is "supposedly" brought in by the site owner's investments), it could spell the doom of that site. Unfortunately, that's only answering a fool according to his folly, allowing him to say "That's what sometimes brings the failures of these. That and people who are out to scam from the start." By letting this happen, they are able to point to common "excuses" as the reasons why these fail, rather than being forced to confront the facts. This ends up causing more people to trust them than would otherwise have, because to some people who do not know better, this seems to make the whole concept seem more legitimate.

Another way you can approach the subject is by questioning why there is no proof of returns on investment by the owner, why nothing is done regarding taxes, etc. In this case, you're giving them the burden of proof. Naturally, they will do one of a few things, most likely involving semantics, fallacies, or flat out dodging the question. You'll need to be astute and point out in clear terms what they are doing, ask them to go back and give a real answer, and while you're at it, wonder aloud "...and what about this other discrepancy about these kinds of programs?"

The fact is that they are Ponzi schemes, but since this is not a court of law (lol), you will never be able to put that burden of proof on them. Try as you might, they will continue to do dodge questions, and most likely say that it's you who is going off topic, although they continue to change the topic every time you ask them for proof. :p

Thankfully, there is a wonderful ending to the story. The good point is that their words are absolutely irrelevant! You know who these people are. They truly know what these HYIPs are, but they will deceive anyone else in order to be sure of gaining another buck for themselves. If you do your best of, firstly, pointing out what HYIPs are, and secondly, pointing out that they blatantly refuse to offer any proof or even to answer your question, you will have won over those who do matter: the ones who otherwise may have put money in, further worsening the cycle. If you can save one person from this, that's a good start. Even better is that by saving one, you've most likely saved three more that would have been cheated by him once he realized what was happening. :)

bellestraker

6th August 2005, 18:58

wagdoll

6th August 2005, 19:02

True, Wagdoll. I'd like to see a ruling stating... "Anything even slightly resembling a pyramid is strictly prohibited."
A pyramid scheme by any other name is STILL reprehensible.

One thing newbies to paid to read and paid to surf find confusing is the pyramid structure of the referrals and confuse that with illegal pyramid scheme. There is a difference between a legal pyramid structure and an illegal pyramid scheme. Then you have mlm's and ponzi's.

An illegal pyramid would be something like, pay $1 to join and then go and get people to join under you and 3 people join under you you receive $3, then they each need 3 people under them paying $1 to receive their $1 and so on. That shuffling around of money from one level to another is the prime reason for the existence of the scheme. And it breaks down when the lower levels get so large that those people can't get anyone below them. I think I read that a 10x10 matrix (another word that comes up in relation to these schemes) would run out of people on the planet after about 10 levels. So the people at the lower levels have been 'suckered into' the scam with the promise of easy money, all they do is pay their amount, then get the required number of people under them and they have loadsa money, but they can't get those people under them and so they have lost their money.

A ponzi doesn't have this pyramid structure at all. It is similar to the pyramid only in that it relies on money from later investors to pay the dividends to earlier investors and is also characterised by a lack of a product at a fair value.

The individual members in a ponzi are not 'forced' to get more people under them as in a pyramid scheme. But their returns and profits will only come if more investors come after them. It's like you join (and you are basically paying money for the expectation of more money - that is common to both illegal pyramids and ponzi's) you pay your $100 and you are promised $500 in return. Although many of them say they will invest your money, what they actually do is pay it to someone who invested earlier than you. Then you would need 5 people to join 'after' you, but not necessarily 'under' you to get your return and profit. So it runs out of people in a similar way to how the pyramid schemes do.

MLM's are harder to quantify as they usually have a product that is being bought. The law is not so clear on this, the product would have to be sold at a reasonable value, you couldn't sell paperclips for $10 a piece and promote this by telling people that if they sold paperclips for $10 to 4 others then they have made $40 and so on through the levels. But there are cases where mlm's have been called legal in court. They often have to have something like non-members must purchase a certain amount of the product to be considered legal, the product must have a use as well as being properly priced.

Another thing you have is chain letters. These look like a list of names and you are told to pay so much to the first name on the list then remove the first name and add your name to the bottom. This type of scheme is illegal both offline and online.

Randomisers, bubbles, doublers, triplers, hyip's(scam ones) run along these kinds of lines and are all illegal.

Josh

6th August 2005, 19:17

So..If I say..How come they have been paying out $....00 dollars to ???members for the past year..

( Even though I absolutely KNOW that they can not carry on- eventually the line of "members" will dry up)

What is wrong with me making hay while the sun shines??..Is it my problem if others did not have enough "faith to take the risk" or "good common sense to get in at the top.??

Not many of them would actually admit that. If they actually do, they've admitting to doing something that is illegal where this forum is located in! :) They've actually given you an easy out if they say that.

Why is this any different than the stock market.

The stock market is (except for scandals ;) ) based on companies selling legitimate items to make revenue. When you invest into a stock market, you can earn money or lose money, irregardless of how many people "join" and "upgrade" after you do. In fact, your $100 stock could end up being worth $25, and you may sell it to someone else and cut your losses. If you don't want to lose $75 out of it, you can hold on and, if you have the right one, you may end up with $150. The value is based on the confidence of consumers in the company's continued success in selling something that actually exists. In a HYIP, what is being "sold" is limited - once everyone on earth (although it would actually be much less) has been sold an upgrade, who is left to buy? Forget about selling your "upgrade" for a loss when you can't even sell it at all. :(

When the stock market guarantees* 200% ROI and requires that others spend money on an absolute nothing in order to pay off the first investor, then they will be a little more similar. :)

* Note: Do not invest more than you can afford to lose. Although we do "guarantee" a 200% return, it is possible that you may be given less than this, or even lose all earnings and principle. Should you decide to leave, we also offer a full money-back guarantee if you sucker two people to defen...err...invest at least as much as you have!

wagdoll

6th August 2005, 19:17

What is wrong with me making hay while the sun shines??..

Would you go out in the street and tell 5 people to give you $50 and if they do that they will get $250 each - knowing they more than likely wont get anything back and will have just lost their $50 but you gained $250? They weren't giving you the money to be nice to you, they only did it with expectation of the return.

Some people might not have any problem with that though, so the law says these schemes are illegal. Which to a lot of people is in itself a good reason to avoid them.

Why is this any different than the stock market.

In the stock market, there are actual investments taking place. The companies are legal ventures that are based on buying and selling of products and services. In a ponzi there usually are no investments, if there are any it is in other ponzi's or at a level of return way under what is being promised (they might invest in forex for 5 or 10% a month but be promising the members 50% a month, so it is out of whack with what they are offering).

Stock market companies also only release a certain amount of stock at a time, they don't offer unlimited amounts. The companies themselves if run properly are sustainable, that is generally the aim of running a business, that it will be able to sustain itself. And they do that by offering a product or service for a set price, you hand over your $$ and receive the product. You don't buy and then get back 300% of what you paid. You don't have to get more people to buy after you, you just have a straight transaction, $=product or service.

When you buy stocks you are not buying in the hope that more people will buy after you, you are buying into the value of the company. You also often become a shareholder and get a say in the company, and you have the right to see the balance sheets of the company. You don't get any of those things when 'investing' in a ponzi.

If you are the last person to buy a stock in the company, that doesn't mean the company dies. As said before the company itself will be run 'sustainably' and can continue to operate by selling their service or product with or without more stocks sold or more investors. This cannot be said of a ponzi.

bellestraker

6th August 2005, 19:22

Before I read this post I actually thought i was getting pretty smart lol.

It really is a lot to learn and I can only imagine the information overload faced by newcomers when many old timers have only a passing understanding. ( if that).
Once agin.I thik this results partially from the misuse of the word ponzi to describe many sites who are behind or even ones who have flat out scammed members.

I would like to see a combination of the posts by you and Josh used to help people understand and have it placed at the beginning of a portion of the forum set up to inform about each one.

Belle

One thing newbies to paid to read and paid to surf find confusing is the pyramid structure of the referrals and confuse that with illegal pyramid scheme. There is a difference between a legal pyramid structure and an illegal pyramid scheme. Then you have mlm's and ponzi's.

An illegal pyramid would be something like, pay $1 to join and then go and get people to join under you and 3 people join under you you receive $3, then they each need 3 people under them paying $1 to receive their $1 and so on. That shuffling around of money from one level to another is the prime reason for the existence of the scheme. And it breaks down when the lower levels get so large that those people can't get anyone below them. I think I read that a 10x10 matrix (another word that comes up in relation to these schemes) would run out of people on the planet after about 10 levels. So the people at the lower levels have been 'suckered into' the scam with the promise of easy money, all they do is pay their amount, then get the required number of people under them and they have loadsa money, but they can't get those people under them and so they have lost their money.

A ponzi doesn't have this pyramid structure at all. It is similar to the pyramid only in that it relies on money from later investors to pay the dividends to earlier investors and is also characterised by a lack of a product at a fair value.

The individual members in a ponzi are not 'forced' to get more people under them as in a pyramid scheme. But their returns and profits will only come if more investors come after them. It's like you join (and you are basically paying money for the expectation of more money - that is common to both illegal pyramids and ponzi's) you pay your $100 and you are promised $500 in return. Although many of them say they will invest your money, what they actually do is pay it to someone who invested earlier than you. Then you would need 5 people to join 'after' you, but not necessarily 'under' you to get your return and profit. So it runs out of people in a similar way to how the pyramid schemes do.

MLM's are harder to quantify as they usually have a product that is being bought. The law is not so clear on this, the product would have to be sold at a reasonable value, you couldn't sell paperclips for $10 a piece and promote this by telling people that if they sold paperclips for $10 to 4 others then they have made $40 and so on through the levels. But there are cases where mlm's have been called legal in court. They often have to have something like non-members must purchase a certain amount of the product to be considered legal, the product must have a use as well as being properly priced.

Another thing you have is chain letters. These look like a list of names and you are told to pay so much to the first name on the list then remove the first name and add your name to the bottom. This type of scheme is illegal both offline and online.

Randomisers, bubbles, doublers, triplers, hyip's(scam ones) run along these kinds of lines and are all illegal.

Josh

6th August 2005, 19:27

Once agin.I thik this results partially from the misuse of the word ponzi to describe many sites who are behind or even ones who have flat out scammed members.

Yes, people do tend to throw out the word "Ponzi" (and "scam" for that matter) whenever they feel that a program is simply out of cash, even when it may be behind on payments for another reason.

Such is the drama of GPT. :)

Clearing up definitions is a good place to start. If people are hearing what you say, but thinking it means something else, you'll either have them pumped up for stopping the wrong thing, or so confused that they think you are a nutcase.

Later. :cool:

Tmarie99

6th August 2005, 19:30

Josh, Wag... Thanks for the info. I've learned some stuff and learned that what I thought was right.

Josh

6th August 2005, 19:36

Josh, Wag... Thanks for the info. I've learned some stuff and learned that what I thought was right.

Welcome. :)

freebiesite

7th August 2005, 20:09

The Ponzi Scheme
Charles Ponzi promised to double your money in just 90 days. Many people did get their money. Read this story to find out how.
http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/ponzi/

Historical perspective :)

JMO a good litmus test around here would be if the programs require upfront money or require people to "invest"money or to "buy upgrades' etc in order to get paid?? I think that would be a good way to prevent rip offs??

freecashspace

7th August 2005, 21:44

That would take care of the HYIPs and the bubbles and the randomizers and such, but most of the autosurfs don't require you to invest. Of course that doesn't mean they're not illegal Ponzi HYIP scams. :laugh:

Cheers,

Wil

wagdoll

8th August 2005, 05:01

Of course that doesn't mean they're not illegal Ponzi HYIP scams

No it doesn't, though it does often come up as a reason why x program isn't illegal because you aren't 'forced' to pay, they even give you $10 to start you off! This type of practice of free members is often called benefactoring people in - and the schemes are still illegal and are still successfully prosecuted.

These schemes might not force people to part with their money, but they certainly make it sound beneficial to spend with them. They might put in the disclaimer of 'you might not get your money back, we might have to reduce rates to as little as 0%' etc, but they are still ponzi's and still illegal. Even if it says in the TOS that they take the money from new members to pay earlier members (basic description of a ponzi) they are still illegal.

Even if they tell you you have no legal recourse if you don't get your money back, they are still illegal and technically you may well have legal grounds to sue them (though that would be costly if you did it alone - but you can sometimes get lawyers to take on group cases where you can share the cost).

Technically you could also be prosecuted for taking part, you could be forced by the court to repay anything you got out of the scheme.

The longer these schemes are in operation means nothing, all it means is they will go out scamming a larger ratio of members. The longer they exist and the more they take in, not only more people get scammed but the ratio of people profiting to people losing is also greater.

Just looked down at the google ads and noticed another term for these type of illegal schemes: gifting clubs. They are often advertised with spiel like there is enough money in the world it's just not distributed 'fairly' so some people are millionaires and some are paupers. They claim that by giving you will receive but it's just a con job to redistribute the money to the top of the pyramid into the hands of the person who started it and take from the people at the bottom of the pyramid. Gifting clubs are not sustainable as they run out of money/people to join, those who get in last 'lose', but the psychological tactic makes it sound very friendly and caring and is often just the attitude you are looking for when you are not well off and in need of some extra $$. Unfortunately it's just a scam, they don't really care about you at all, all they care about is their own fortunes.

freecashspace

8th August 2005, 10:24

bellestraker

8th August 2005, 16:32

Yep, gifting clubs, or pyramid clubs really blow that whole 'it's not illegal because everybody knew the risks and knew there were no guarantees' thing. US courts have ruled that any kind of ponzi/pyramid scheme is inherently deceptive. Adding an autosurf as a 'twist' doesn't change that. My guess is that in prison there's no shortage of people who thought they'd found a loophole. :laugh:

Cheers,

Wil
Yep, gifting clubs, or pyramid clubs really blow that whole 'it's not illegal because everybody knew the risks and knew there were no guarantees' thing. US courts have ruled that any kind of ponzi/pyramid scheme is inherently deceptive. Adding an autosurf as a 'twist' doesn't change that. My guess is that in prison there's no shortage of people who thought they'd found a loophole. :laugh:

Cheers,

Wil

Spent Sunday on the ocean and didnt see land or computers for a whole day + 1/2 ( so restful)( haha Josh)
but now..back to hyips etc.

When I was reading FC's post I realized how hard it is to know which specific "type" we are talking about.

I see so many people advertise autosurf's that I for one...never considered them as anything near a ponzi.
I have never belonged to one.so nto sureee how they are set up .but I will bet many of us have no idea which gptr add on's bear watching.

I know we are going in a lot of different directions but if terms were spelled out ( Scam,Ponzi,pyramid,etc) as well as existing ventures using them.( and how)

If I were to list those I KNOW..it would likely not include many which should be there..

Just going thru this thread and pulling out the info here ..tells me about 90% more than I knew before it started.

Belle

cupcake

15th August 2005, 04:08

These new doublers, hyip's, bubbles, ponzi autosurfs are the worst things I've seen in a while for two reasons:

1. They're OBVIOUSLY illegal and wrong, yet
2. Many big time promoters, forum owners, etc have their hands in them (seeeecretly). :cool:

Something needs to be done. You write an article, I'm giving it a million hits at the very least.

Cupcake

investkid

15th August 2005, 09:21

Before posting I went and did a bit of research on HYIPs and Autosurfs. I read and read but not private forums of programs, no, forums where they meet.

I learned tons. I learned mostly that they know they operate a Ponzi or HYIP and that it's illegal. But, they give each other pointers about doing a "good job", how to get money out of it, like take 10% out of the money received before paying members... pay 3-5% daily when you can, more than that is too much... the first 2-3 months of operation will break you or make you... got to have good members' support... add an autosurf to it, it makes it look more legit...

The following articles are worth a read IMO. In the first article, the OP states that he will be opening a Ponzi and got a partner (check the first and last posts).

In the second article, the author states and I quote: "the folks at Studiotraffic are geniuses for building upon the invention of paid autosurfing". Don't ask.

;)

http://www.talkgold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22964&page=1&pp=10

http://www.autosurfcentral.com/reliable-autosurf-programs.html

Partyman

16th August 2005, 00:25

Is this for penny clicking rednecks only, or can normal people join in?

bellestraker

16th August 2005, 01:10

Is this for penny clicking rednecks only, or can normal people join in?

You actually made the effort to come back in here and edit to add rednecks..

Yep..Normal people can join in...Do you know any???

Belle

Partyman

16th August 2005, 02:03

I just thought I would add the 'rednecks' to ensure you knew what my position is. I had a look at the links on the first page of this thread in Wagdoll's post. The first one has ads in the google ads for obvious scams. The second was a site where the WM was selling a book on the subject. I didn't bother with the third. Where do you guys get your motivation from?

cupcake

16th August 2005, 04:07

Is this for penny clicking rednecks only, or can normal people join in?

I don't live in the South, don't listen to country music and am certainly not a redneck. Kind of like how I'm not a greedy, uneducated pig at the end of my financial rope, so I don't resort to doing an illegal HYIP. See how much both of those comparisons make sense? Nice job contributing something of value, though! It really makes you look like you know what you're talking about.

Cupcake

wagdoll

16th August 2005, 05:47

[QUOTE]I had a look at the links on the first page of this thread in Wagdoll's post. The first one has ads in the google ads for obvious scams. The second was a site where the WM was selling a book on the subject. I didn't bother with the third. Where do you guys get your motivation from?[QUOTE]

Google ads showing scams? This is one of the problems with google if you are describing ponzi scams in your content, the ads tend to show things like randomisers and gifting clubs, but does that deny the validity of what was said in the content?

Selling a book on the subject? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything?

Where do we get our motivation from? From seeing people believe in these scams, put money in and then get ripped off in a bad way. From seeing people who know 'how to play the game' use others so that they can get theirs and stuff the people who lose, then they go round shouting how it wasn't a scam cos they got paid, but don't mention or care about the number of people who got ripped off so they could get paid.

The talkgold post that investkid referenced really does describe the reality behind these scams. The author might not be a ponzi fan, but he has a good understanding of how they work I think - perhaps that is why he isn't a fan?