Hauling Cash--Really?

[kj17011]

I was waiting for this. Why is it that PTRs can make tons of changes, find many ways to delete you, and you have to sign the TOS or you lose your account? I lost almost $30 from Hauling Cash. Mike said I failed the English test, yet it came back to me that I passed. I do not care what pictures he has....I do not even care if I passed it. The point is this: There are far too many ways to lose the money you have earned by a simple wrong click, or your mail box bouncing.......look at the site and see how many reasons you can be deleted for. Remember these are 1/4 cents you are clicking for!!!! He makes a game out of it.....Gee, I cannot afford to pay these people......if I can delete them I won't have to!!!! Then You have to agree to the TOS which gets stiffer on the member all the time.....then referrals go wayyyyyy down.....you have sign that new TOS in order to get the money you clicked for since last year.....all the while that TOS indicates he will pay you in 30 days or a reasonable time thereafter. How reasonable is several months.....? We have to do all the agreeing to rules and they have NO RULES. If you are going to be deleted, you should at least be paid for what you EARNED thus far. Hauling Cash will be the new MistyandSam's...or people will see Hauling Cash for what it is....

[michaellaskey]

Hmmm, Kim..
While your here if you going to tell the story.. Why not tell the WHOLE story :\ The Truth of the whole matter is YOU were caught Blind clicking by one of My English/Reading tests.. Worse yet.. You didnt Even know :( Which tell me two VERY important things... #1 You are NOT Reading the Mails, If you were there is NO reason you would have messed that up.. Other than "Blind Clicking" of course.. Below is a Copy of the Exact English test, That YOU blind clicked on..


At Hauling Cash our advertisers pay to have their ads read and understood by members.

We expect that members give the advertisers what they pay for, and if you can not understand english, you're not giving our advertisers their money's worth.

This is a simple english test, ALL users who fail it will be removed NO QUESTIONS ASKED, NO SECOND CHANCES !

There are TWO links below, to keep your account at Hauling Cash in good standing you need to click on the "SECOND PAID LINK" - if you click the first link you fail, and your account will be removed.

Again, be sure to click ONLY the second paid link, ignore the first link. If you click the first link your account will be deleted !


FIRST LINK

Edit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SECOND LINK

Edit


#2.. You are NOT paying ANY attention to our Advertisers websites.. Because IF you were.. The webpage the Incorrect link would have made you Very Clear.. Below is a Link to that Page..

http://haulingcash.com/pages/failed.php

You were NOT deleted for not agreeing to the TOS.. As YOU did Agree to them. Below is a C+P of that..

kj17011 Tue, 24 May 2005 12:55:23 -0400 I accept the Updated TOS

So in Essence this Story your Telling here is basically a Lie!!

[WolfEmails]

I was waiting for this. Why is it that PTRs can make tons of changes, find many ways to delete you, and you have to sign the TOS or you lose your account? I lost almost $30 from Hauling Cash.

As stated in another post you made ...you were NOT deleted for not agreeing to the new TOS, please stop making it sound as though that was part of the reason.

Mike said I failed the English test, yet it came back to me that I passed. I do not care what pictures he has....I do not even care if I passed it.

Of course you saw the passed page Kimberly, considering you paid so little attention to that email that you clicked BOTH Link #1 which was the bad link ( obviously blind since you never "saw" the failed page ) Then you went on seconds later to click the #2 link which was the good link, nice that you at least glanced at that page...the passed one. Unfortunately for you however, clicking the good one later, does not ERASE the bad click that you NEVER EVEN NOTICED !! If you'd care to see the click log on that one, it can be provided.

The point is this: There are far too many ways to lose the money you have earned by a simple wrong click, or your mail box bouncing.......look at the site and see how many reasons you can be deleted for.

There are far too many ways for members to take advantage of program owners who are TRYING to run an honest program for the advertisers. Blind clickers, cheaters, etc. All drain a site of resources that could be used for HONEST, RELIABLE members.

He makes a game out of it.....Gee, I cannot afford to pay these people......if I can delete them I won't have to!!!!

Now you're beginning to tick me off. Do you think that if this were a GAME as you call it, he'd still be here 2 years later ? Do you THINK his idea of fun is having members who can't or refuse to follow rules bashing his name and his site whenever they feel they've been "wronged" ? Get a freaking life Kimberly, this is NOT fun, and it's not a game. Go attack the ones that open their doors and close them just as fast a month later walking off with everyone's money. Mike pays, and he pays DAILY !

When you're caught blind clicking, cheating, etc. you quite honestly don't deserve SQUAT from your earnings, past or present. If you blind clicked once that's a sure sign you've done it before, so you tell me how much of your account earnings were HONEST earnings. Or were you sitting there having fun with your own little game...."let's see how much money I can get out of this PO before they realize I'm dead weight in the program"

You have to agree to the TOS which gets stiffer on the member all the time.....

Yes, they sure do, because every stinking day SOME members find new and interesting ways to cheat and take advantage of a program. So we're forced to come up with a broader range of terms to encompass those things.

Typically the only people that should have been upset by the new TOS were those who would in fact try to cheat. Those were the only additions, items to protect the site against cheaters.

or people will see Hauling Cash for what it is....

I do so hope you're right...I hope they see if for what it is, and NOT what you try to make it appear to be.

What it is ...a long term, reliable program, with a reliable webmaster who has stuck it out through the bad times...for what ? For his members...certainly not for the PENNIES we make from this job.

** BUTT KISSING DISCLAIMER -- this was not an attempt to kiss anyone's butt as has been implied by the OP in the past, just an honest opinion on the matter from someone who can't stand whining from deleted members **

[freebiesite]

Hi...how do you get them to "sign the tos"???

I am still looking for that old tos plug in or something

Rhonda...IM me ok?? thanks..cheri

[kj17011]

Wolf,

I will not even bother to read your longggggggg message...we already know how you and Mike feel about each other. I never said I was deleted because of TOS..... Mike said I flunked the test but I did not.....now don't waste anymore time kissing up to Mike.....I will not read anything you or Mike say...it is all the same.......a lot like Hauling Trash....with the spelling errors in his emails....he should be taking a spelling test lol...by the way what happens to you happy people when you are late in paying? Can we delete YOU?

[AnI4AnI]

Edited. Changed my mind

[michaellaskey]

**I Posted this in the "Other Thread" that you decided to LIE in.. But just on the off chance that you didnt READ (Heaven Forbid!!) Here it is again!!

LMAO Kim..
You are such a Liar!!! The ONLY reason you saw the Passed Test message is because you were paying so LITTLE attention to READING the mail or Paying ATTENTION to the advertisers websites, That you clicked BOTH links.. Yup.. Thats MY fault that YOU were NOT doing ANYTHING you were being paid to do... NOTHING!!! Below is the Mail that was sent..

------------------------------

At Hauling Cash our advertisers pay to have their ads read and understood by members.

We expect that members give the advertisers what they pay for, and if you can not understand english, you're not giving our advertisers their money's worth.

This is a simple english test, ALL users who fail it will be removed NO QUESTIONS ASKED, NO SECOND CHANCES !

There are TWO links below, to keep your account at Hauling Cash in good standing you need to click on the "SECOND PAID LINK" - if you click the first link you fail, and your account will be removed.

Again, be sure to click ONLY the second paid link, ignore the first link. If you click the first link your account will be deleted !


FIRST LINK

Edit (Your Click Log)kj17011 0.00000 cash 05/24/2005 15:41
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SECOND LINK

Edit (Your Click Log)kj17011 0.00000 cash 05/24/2005 15:49

------------------------------------------
But... I know.. Its MY fault that YOU were caught CHEATING our Advertisers.. AND IF you were wrong You'd Admit it.. Looks like another one of you LIES to me


Wolf,

I will not even bother to read your longggggggg message...we already know how you and Mike feel about each other. I never said I was deleted because of TOS..... Mike said I flunked the test but I did not.....now don't waste anymore time kissing up to Mike.....I will not read anything you or Mike say...it is all the same.......a lot like Hauling Trash....with the spelling errors in his emails....he should be taking a spelling test lol...by the way what happens to you happy people when you are late in paying? Can we delete YOU?

[kj17011]

Mike, Actually, I think you should have your English test set up a bit differently...If I realllllly did fail the English test......why have it come up on the screen that I passed it when you know if I press the next button I am going to fail...and I could do that...duh...

Secondly, I am not a liar. It did come up that I passed it....that is just the way you have it set up. It does not really matter if I passed it. You think paying people 1/4 of a cent is supposed to mean no mistakes...and having a 30 minute love affair with your emails.....Wake up!!! I have no problem with admitting that with the way you have it set up...I could end up thinking I passed the test....working for you is like being in a horror house in the dark and everything you do there, you have to watch your step or you fall into a pit of snakes.....for 1/4 of cent.....-------->real world over here

Thirdly, I must have such an affect on you because are always so bitter and angry. You never do anything with grace. It appears to me that you have all these swamp holes hoping people will fall into them so you will have one less person to pay....YOU really care if members are reading every word...nahhhhhh.....Nobodyyyyyy has a PTR like you. Nobody is nasty like you are. If I did fail your English, so what? I earned almost $30 up to this point.....Now, realize.....whether or not I passed it and whether or not you can prove it, will not give your more members or take from the ones you do have....what will make you lose members is how you deal with me and other members.....people see how you communicate and they will say.......Yikes! I am next.....there are too many PTRs that do not have turing numbers, tons of expired emails, or emails saying I saw clicked on this before(why send it twice?) and that means I do not get credit......tons of delete pitfalls.....I clicked a lot but how many of them did I really get credit for? A few of each is fine expired email,etc is fine but I gotta love the ones without turing numbers and very nice PTR owners. So it is your attitude and the way you do business that will hurt you.....not my English test. Not to mention the fact that you are sooooooo behind in payment(I have another PTR like that but she is so nice that I am fine with it!) Now, we have all these rules for people clicking 1/4 cent emails.....how about rules for PTR owners like you? You would be deleted by now. How about changing the rules so they are TRUTHFUL, not LIES about when you REALLY pay? Or should we just delete you? That is one lie every member who has asked for payout, knows about. Hauling Cash is not paying in 30 days or a reasonable time thereafter....I asked for payout on 4/20/05 and I was deleted yesterday...and there were almost 800 people ahead of me and you were paying slowlyyyyyyyyyyyy.......let's see....I guess I would have been paid within 6 months....I figure 30 days or a reasonable time...would have made you on time yesterday...the day I was deleted. As of today you are LATE.......sorry, Mike, we will have to delete you for failing one of your own rules.....

Not to worry, Mike......just because I am not one of your members, does not mean I won't tell everyone about you....I said by my word.....I will.

Now, you can write on this board all you want.....your reputation proceeds you and I have nothing else to say. Reading ANYTHING you have to say would be a waste so I wont.....

Kimberly
__________________

[bellestraker]

As stated in another post you made ...you were NOT deleted for not agreeing to the new TOS, please stop making it sound as though that was part of the reason.





You seem upset by someone implying that they were deleted for not agreeing to the tos( Or maybe because you feel its a lie)
So does that mean that if I do not agree to the new terms..I will not be deleted and my earnings forfeited.



There are far too many ways for members to take advantage of program owners who are TRYING to run an honest program for the advertisers. Blind clickers, cheaters, etc. All drain a site of resources that could be used for HONEST, RELIABLE members.



I think its a pretty equal number between po's and members who are unethical.
The only difference seems to be that the members have no recourse.



Now you're beginning to tick me off. Do you think that if this were a GAME as you call it, he'd still be here 2 years later ? Do you THINK his idea of fun is having members who can't or refuse to follow rules bashing his name and his site whenever they feel they've been "wronged" ? Get a freaking life Kimberly, this is NOT fun, and it's not a game. Go attack the ones that open their doors and close them just as fast a month later walking off with everyone's money. Mike pays, and he pays DAILY !


So if there is someone worse...then the po who breaches tos less cant be called on it??

When you're caught blind clicking, cheating, etc. you quite honestly don't deserve SQUAT from your earnings, past or present. If you blind clicked once that's a sure sign you've done it before, so you tell me how much of your account earnings were HONEST earnings. Or were you sitting there having fun with your own little game...."let's see how much money I can get out of this PO before they realize I'm dead weight in the program"



So if you make a mistake and misplace someones request for payout...You must have deliberately done it before and therefore never had any intention of paying...??..The only difference again is that YOU have something to hold ( earnings)


Yes, they sure do, because every stinking day SOME members find new and interesting ways to cheat and take advantage of a program. So we're forced to come up with a broader range of terms to encompass those things.

Typically the only people that should have been upset by the new TOS were those who would in fact try to cheat. Those were the only additions, items to protect the site against cheaters.


Was the no forum bashing rules always there.?? Wow did people ever get upset about that one before.


I do so hope you're right...I hope they see if for what it is, and NOT what you try to make it appear to be.

What it is ...a long term, reliable program, with a reliable webmaster who has stuck it out through the bad times...for what ? For his members...certainly not for the PENNIES we make from this job.


I am so impressed by all these w/m's who spend so much of their life without a thought for themselves. - All for their members.



** BUTT KISSING DISCLAIMER -- this was not an attempt to kiss anyone's butt as has been implied by the OP in the past, just an honest opinion on the matter from someone who can't stand whining from deleted members **




I used to listen to what others called Mikes angry posts and they never bothered me because even in anger..and his worst butt kicking ( with a ck) I always felt an underlying sincerity and a geuine caring for his site and his members.

However since you have become the official or unofficial spokesperson for HC you seem intend on letting everyone know at every opportunity that YOU are running things...and you do the site, the links, the talking, etc. etc.

That would be a good thing but IMO I find it strange that with Wolfe you came across as everybodys best friend...and with HC you seem to never miss a chance to belittle and make enemies.

As well Sometimes members like to hear it from "the owners" mouth.

Have a good one

Belle

[michaellaskey]

Why Belle?? So they can then proceed to Trash the "Owner" for being "Rude" and "Abrasive". I dunno Belle but daily I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is NOTHING that I can say,Do or Think without the Trolls having their way with me. I handle my Support.. You's Dont like How I do it.. I have someone else handle my PR on the boards.. And get comments like the one you've made here.. IMHO.. Wil appears to be rubbing off on you.. Thats nice :(



As well Sometimes members like to hear it from "the owners" mouth.

Have a good one

Belle[/B]

[freecashspace]

Wil appears to be rubbing off on youSee how it goes, Belle? You ask some perfectly reasonable questions, and instead of answers, you get insulted. :\

And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any straight answers, either. Heck, I can't even get a straight answer to my question about whether Mike is still behind on payments or not. I thought he was caught up, because the last time I requested payment, I was paid well within the Terms, and heaps of other people at GPF posted saying they did too. So I added HC back on my list of recommended programs thinking everything was cool, and telling people that Mike had succeeded in getting HC back on track. Now it appears that might not be true. :(

I've been saying things about HaulingCash that were misleading and untrue! According to Rhonda, that's a perfectly valid reason for deleting a member. :!:

Cheers,

Wil

[bellestraker]

See how it goes, Belle? You ask some perfectly reasonable questions, and instead of answers, you get insulted. :\

And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any straight answers, either. Heck, I can't even get a straight answer to my question about whether Mike is still behind on payments or not. I thought he was caught up, because the last time I requested payment, I was paid well within the Terms, and heaps of other people at GPF posted saying they did too. So I added HC back on my list of recommended programs thinking everything was cool, and telling people that Mike had succeeded in getting HC back on track. Now it appears that might not be true. :(

I've been saying things about HaulingCash that were misleading and untrue! According to Rhonda, that's a perfectly valid reason for deleting a member. :!:

Cheers,

Wil





This entire thread ( plus another) seems to have been allowed to drag on when a short..answer would have completely shut it down.( as with the timer and that really baffles me..I could have been sleeping instead of hanging around)AND IMO the timer was fair.



I have no idea why and yes you are right about possible deletion.

It seems there are quite a few things that could result in that.( And I havent finished reading so expect more)

Have a good one

Belle

[bellestraker]

Why Belle?? So they can then proceed to Trash the "Owner" for being "Rude" and "Abrasive". I dunno Belle but daily I'm becoming more and more convinced that there is NOTHING that I can say,Do or Think without the Trolls having their way with me. I handle my Support.. You's Dont like How I do it.. I have someone else handle my PR on the boards.. And get comments like the one you've made here.. IMHO.. Wil appears to be rubbing off on you.. Thats nice :(




Mike

I have read those complaints for ages ( your abruptness, rudeness etc.) and although I realize that any put down hurts..You must be aware that you had far more supporters than bashers.( I know that still doesnt make it easier to take sometimes)

Many see behind the outbursts to the guy who has fought to keep his site running and to make every effort to keep members paid.

Even being behind in payments did not silence the supporters as it seemed you were making every effort to get back on track.( and it seemed you did )
You waffled a bit when you were first late but then you explained the situation and..I do not recall any big bashfest.

I am not sure what has happened in the past month or so but now I see many things which imo.. are not normal HC..

I admit to being touchy about one po bashing another but that seems to have become a fairly regular occurance. ( although at one time you seemed to not believe in it either )When I see your site ( which is behind in payment) refusing to be named on a list with another who is also behind......HUH??

( The other site is FAR behind and not comparable in length of time but who decides..if you are late thats ok...because someone else is later?)

A lot of the lines seem to have become blurred.

I did not even comment at the time because no PO..or member will ever agree with everything and thats fine.
Now it seems many things are changing...and imo..they are not for the good.

I enjoyed your site but now it seems that amid the laughter and smiley faces is a whole lot of bobbing and weaving.


Yesterday was a good example.
I did not start off angry. I asked a very legitimate question and COULD NOT get an answer.( and there was nothing to hide)

To me that shows a complete disdain for members and the appearance that "the powers that be" do not feel that we deserve any explanation for anything.

Then there was wils question and it is still unanswered.

You had/have some great members who are very loyal to this site and to YOU...

I hope that doesnt get lost in all this.

Have a good one

Belle
I dont think I explained it very well but hope you are able to understand what I am trying to say.

[michaellaskey]

So in essence Belle.. Your Real problem with Rhonda and I is that we have asked to be removed from that STUPID vote in getpaidcesspool :\ because I made MY decision that if Linder the scammer was in that list, I no longer wanted to be.. LOL.. Ya know belle.. Your really something.. Sometimes. You say THIS thread would NOT have been dragged on so long if YOU had an answer to that Question regarding the cheat link timer.. Now I'll ask you how thats so?? That question was Answered and SS posted of the Link in question... BEFORE you came here and carried your "Trash Fest" a little further.. Yes Belle.. That was answered AND acknowledged by YOU BEFORE you came here and attacked Rhonda... LMAO.. Talk about a fasade :( .. Come here acting like you "Want an answer!!!" When in ALL reality.. You have an Axe to Grind because I REFUSE to be on some STUPID Vote list with a Scammer like linder.. Now Belle this is all good and fine.. But why not keep your Motive's Real?? ;)


Also Belle.. For the record.. I NEVER knew Linder existed until someone sent me a link to Linders forum where he was having his way with me.. I'm VERY sure you know what I'm referring to.. Anyhow as I said I NEVER knew that man existed and he was slaughtering me on his forum.. But whatever.. Bash away I guess.. Seems to be what makes you tick anymore.. Have at it :)

Mike

I have read those complaints for ages ( your abruptness, rudeness etc.) and although I realize that any put down hurts..You must be aware that you had far more supporters than bashers.( I know that still doesnt make it easier to take sometimes)

Many see behind the outbursts to the guy who has fought to keep his site running and to make every effort to keep members paid.

Even being behind in payments did not silence the supporters as it seemed you were making every effort to get back on track.( and it seemed you did )
You waffled a bit when you were first late but then you explained the situation and..I do not recall any big bashfest.

I am not sure what has happened in the past month or so but now I see many things which imo.. are not normal HC..

I admit to being touchy about one po bashing another but that seems to have become a fairly regular occurance. ( although at one time you seemed to not believe in it either )When I see your site ( which is behind in payment) refusing to be named on a list with another who is also behind......HUH??

( The other site is FAR behind and not comparable in length of time but who decides..if you are late thats ok...because someone else is later?)

A lot of the lines seem to have become blurred.

I did not even comment at the time because no PO..or member will ever agree with everything and thats fine.
Now it seems many things are changing...and imo..they are not for the good.

I enjoyed your site but now it seems that amid the laughter and smiley faces is a whole lot of bobbing and weaving.


Yesterday was a good example.
I did not start off angry. I asked a very legitimate question and COULD NOT get an answer.( and there was nothing to hide)

To me that shows a complete disdain for members and the appearance that "the powers that be" do not feel that we deserve any explanation for anything.

Then there was wils question and it is still unanswered.

You had/have some great members who are very loyal to this site and to YOU...

I hope that doesnt get lost in all this.

Have a good one

Belle
I dont think I explained it very well but hope you are able to understand what I am trying to say.

[kglaser]

I do not even care if I passed it. The point is this: There are far too many ways to lose the money you have earned by a simple wrong click, or your mail box bouncing

If you're going to criticize HaulingCash for this, you may as well criticize any number of other sites that do the exact same thing. I just think it's unfair of you to single out HaulingCash if your complaint is a blanket complaint which could cover many sites as you stated.

[barraco28]

for 1/4 of cent.....-------->real world over here

Hi I know I am new here but kim does imply she isn't looking that hard at the advertiser's messages and that is the point for why we are getting paid. I just jointed hauling cash and I see it as very similar to many ptr sites that I am on. Advertisers want to know that people are actually looking at this stuff. Why should they pay for you just to click a button without any payoff for themselves. I understand her frustration of losing everything she had. What a waste of time! I would love it if I could make some money with ptr like everyone else but I can't lose perspective of WHY they are giving me anything at all. I live in the real world. Sorry :\

[michaellaskey]

If more members had your Attitude, I'm Very sure we would be enjoying 2 and 3c clicks.. But unfortunatly a significant amout of PTR members (In General) have the exact attitude Kim has here, And as a DIRECT result the Advertisers are not willing to Even think about anything over 1/4c links.. And they truthfully balk at that.. Why??? Because the member interest displayed is Barely worth 1/4c.. And thats really pretty sad :( Anyhow... thanks for Joining, I hope you will enjoy the Program :cool:


for 1/4 of cent.....-------->real world over here

Hi I know I am new here but kim does imply she isn't looking that hard at the advertiser's messages and that is the point for why we are getting paid. I just jointed hauling cash and I see it as very similar to many ptr sites that I am on. Advertisers want to know that people are actually looking at this stuff. Why should they pay for you just to click a button without any payoff for themselves. I understand her frustration of losing everything she had. What a waste of time! I would love it if I could make some money with ptr like everyone else but I can't lose perspective of WHY they are giving me anything at all. I live in the real world. Sorry :\

[freecashspace]

If more members had your Attitude, I'm Very sure we would be enjoying 2 and 3c clicks.. But unfortunatly a significant amout of PTR members (In General) have the exact attitude Kim has here, And as a DIRECT result the Advertisers are not willing to Even think about anything over 1/4c links.. And they truthfully balk at that.. Why??? Because the member interest displayed is Barely worth 1/4c.. And thats really pretty sad :( Anyhow... thanks for Joining, I hope you will enjoy the Program :cool:
Now something Mike says that I agree with! If members don't think 1/4 cent is enough payment to read the email, click the link and have a look at the advertiser's website, then they shouldn't waste their time doing it. There are easier, more honest ways to make money online besides sitting and blind clicking through 2000 emails a day.

I do see Paidemailkjd's point about the 'You passed' message, though. It is a bit screwy that clicking both links would result in getting messages that say you passed and you failed.

And I also agree that it's more than a bit screwy that a member can be deleted for 'cheating' -- whether they're actually breaking the TOS or not -- and lose the money they've been waiting for well beyond the time stated in the TOS. Nutty.

Cheers,

Wil

[bellestraker]

So in essence Belle.. Your Real problem with Rhonda and I is that we have asked to be removed from that STUPID vote in getpaidcesspool :\ because I made MY decision that if Linder the scammer was in that list, I no longer wanted to be.. LOL.. Ya know belle.. Your really something.. Sometimes. You say THIS thread would NOT have been dragged on so long if YOU had an answer to that Question regarding the cheat link timer.. Now I'll ask you how thats so?? That question was Answered and SS posted of the Link in question... BEFORE you came here and carried your "Trash Fest" a little further.. Yes Belle.. That was answered AND acknowledged by YOU BEFORE you came here and attacked Rhonda... LMAO.. Talk about a fasade :( .. Come here acting like you "Want an answer!!!" When in ALL reality.. You have an Axe to Grind because I REFUSE to be on some STUPID Vote list with a Scammer like linder.. Now Belle this is all good and fine.. But why not keep your Motive's Real?? ;)


Also Belle.. For the record.. I NEVER knew Linder existed until someone sent me a link to Linders forum where he was having his way with me.. I'm VERY sure you know what I'm referring to.. Anyhow as I said I NEVER knew that man existed and he was slaughtering me on his forum.. But whatever.. Bash away I guess.. Seems to be what makes you tick anymore.. Have at it :)

No MIke my REAL issue is not about you refusing to be in a list with Linder.
It is about all the things I mentioned...including the list.
I would have no problem with you not wanting to be included in a list with Linder ( which is completely your right) but do not understand how one po can bash another for being FURTHER behind than they are.

That means ANY PO...and I did not like it when it was done to you either..

However that was ONE issue.

Just a thought though..You say you are upset because Linder bashed sites who send mainly searches (Does that mean THAT is your only problem with him?? or does that only apply to what I say)



Regarding answers..I did ask specifically about the timer and FC asked about the payout.
If you were reading that thread...would you not think answers were very difficult to come by.
So yes I did say it surprised me that no one would answer a simple question which if done ..IMO would have shut the thread down cold.

I guess after dragging on to get one answer...I and others were getting a tad grouchy ( You Know...Kinda like you get)

Another issue is the non answers like saying someone is incorrect about being deleted for not signing the new tos.

I dont think this started as an attempt to decieve anyone - however it would be easy to assume by that statement that people are NOT deleted ( and earnings forfeited) for not agreeing to the new tos.

However ..When I asked for clarification....Surprise..No answer.

And that seems to be the way with any questions lately..

Or..Maybe it was the more than one question that caused the problem.

Have a good one

Belle

[michaellaskey]

No MIke my REAL issue is not about you refusing to be in a list with Linder.
It is about all the things I mentioned...including the list.
I would have no problem with you not wanting to be included in a list with Linder ( which is completely your right) but do not understand how one po can bash another for being FURTHER behind than they are.

That means ANY PO...and I did not like it when it was done to you either..

However that was ONE issue.

Just a thought though..You say you are upset because Linder bashed sites who send mainly searches (Does that mean THAT is your only problem with him?? or does that only apply to what I say)

As I said.. I NEVER knew linder existed Until I saw that crap he has over there, At that time I did start paying attention to Linder and the Accusations toward Linder, You know.. People's accts mysteriously being deleted just as they reach payout, that he is NOT paying anymore and the fact that he cheated my mother out of nearly $200.00 that she clicked for ALONE.. With all the above Accusations, I decided I did not want to be associated with the likes of him anymore.. Not at all.. As far as my Dislike having ANYTHING to do with the fact that he's behind on payments.. IMHO.. theres a HUGE difference in just being "Behind" and Not paying at All.



Regarding answers..I did ask specifically about the timer and FC asked about the payout.
If you were reading that thread...would you not think answers were very difficult to come by.
So yes I did say it surprised me that no one would answer a simple question which if done ..IMO would have shut the thread down cold.

And Belle.. As soon as I came online and became aware that this was in Question I posted the screenshot.. I do apologize but I have things away from GPF .. Ya know Kids,House,Pets... Did I know that thread was there??.. Yes!! However as soon as Wil began participating in that Discussion, I stopped, And that IS my right to not participate with him in ANY discussions... On ANY boards..imho.. Its much better than the fighting/bickering/argueing that ALWAYS occurs when discussing with Wil, Anyhow thats the reason I was not "Fully" monitoring that thread..

I guess after dragging on to get one answer...I and others were getting a tad grouchy ( You Know...Kinda like you get)

Again.. I DO apologize for having a life away from the desk.. I'll try to curb that.. By the way, the only ones in that thread being grouchy and trying to open a Hornets nest was You.. And Wil.... Think about it..

Another issue is the non answers like saying someone is lying about being deleted for not signing the new tos.

I dont think this started as an attempt to decieve anyone - however it would be easy to assume by that statement that people are NOT deleted ( and earnings forfeited) for not agreeing to the new tos.


Belle

Belle.. This was only an Issue, Because YOU made it one.. But since you ask.. NO I have NOT deleted ANY member for not agreeing to the TOS.. I have however suspended 16 Accts that failed to agree.. 12 of which have since contacted me and had their accts restored... The other four, if no contact is made or attempt to restore the accts, They will be purged after 30 Days... And I suppose you wont agree with that and Thats ok.. Because I have to do what I think is best for the program.. And thats it.

[bellestraker]

As I said.. I NEVER knew linder existed Until I saw that crap he has over there, At that time I did start paying attention to Linder and the Accusations toward Linder, You know.. People's accts mysteriously being deleted just as they reach payout, that he is NOT paying anymore and the fact that he cheated my mother out of nearly $200.00 that she clicked for ALONE.. With all the above Accusations, I decided I did not want to be associated with the likes of him anymore.. Not at all.. As far as my Dislike having ANYTHING to do with the fact that he's behind on payments.. IMHO.. theres a HUGE difference in just being "Behind" and Not paying at All.


VERY slowly is not quite the same as NOT paying but it may appear that way and I don't know about deleting people "when they reach payout".

Is that not said about almost every site and ever po when a member is deleted.?? Even HC



And Belle.. As soon as I came online and became aware that this was in Question I posted the screenshot.. I do apologize but I have things away from GPF .. Ya know Kids,House,Pets... Did I know that thread was there??.. Yes!! However as soon as Wil began participating in that Discussion, I stopped, And that IS my right to not participate with him in ANY discussions... On ANY boards..imho.. Its much better than the fighting/bickering/argueing that ALWAYS occurs when discussing with Wil, Anyhow thats the reason I was not "Fully" monitoring that thread..


I completely understand not being online 24/7 but Rhonda was in the forum and had been dealing with everything else. She had also made it clear that she was the author of the test so I do not find it unreasonable to expect her to respond.


Again.. I DO apologize for having a life away from the desk.. I'll try to curb that.. By the way, the only ones in that thread being grouchy and trying to open a Hornets nest was You.. And Wil.... Think about it..



I have thought about it Mike and I saw no hornets nest until IMO no questions were being answered.


Belle.. This was only an Issue, Because YOU made it one.. But since you ask.. NO I have NOT deleted ANY member for not agreeing to the TOS.. I have however suspended 16 Accts that failed to agree.. 12 of which have since contacted me and had their accts restored... The other four, if no contact is made or attempt to restore the accts, They will be purged after 30 Days... And I suppose you wont agree with that and Thats ok.. Because I have to do what I think is best for the program.. And thats it.


I made it one??

So I guess if I ask if they had to agree to the new tos to get reinstated..that will be Belle once again..stirring a hornets nest.
It seems every time a question is asked..it is taken as a confrontation...I wonder why?

Have a good one

Belle

[freecashspace]

[B]It seems every time a question is asked..it is taken as a confrontation...I wonder why?
Because some POs just don't like to be questioned, Belle. They don't feel the need to have to justify their actions. They operate on the principle that they're the boss, and they can do whatever they want, and if a member (or anybody else) doesn't like it, that's just too bad.

Cheers,

Wil

[michaellaskey]

And Belle.. Here is where I STOP playing your games with you ;) I DO have a support forum, And from here on out, Considering GPTBoycott is NOT my support forum, If you have further Questions, I would encourage you to Visit HC's support forum to seek the support you so desire.
With that..

TTYL ;)

I made it one??

So I guess if I ask if they had to agree to the new tos to get reinstated..that will be Belle once again..stirring a hornets nest.
It seems every time a question is asked..it is taken as a confrontation...I wonder why?

Have a good one

Belle

[manutdonline]

i like haulingcash for the simple fact that it sends me loads of emails and almost none of the links are repeated...
i have joined many other PTRs before where they only sent me 2 or 3 emails a day...and some others send me alot but many of the links are repeated and you cant earn twice... just me 2 cents

[crowe80]

deleted for SPAM

[angel21]

If you're going to criticize HaulingCash for this, you may as well criticize any number of other sites that do the exact same thing. I just think it's unfair of you to single out HaulingCash if your complaint is a blanket complaint which could cover many sites as you stated.
I agree totally. Everyone knows EXACTLY what the OP is up too. Geez!!

[angel21]

And Belle.. Here is where I STOP playing your games with you ;) I DO have a support forum, And from here on out, Considering GPTBoycott is NOT my support forum, If you have further Questions, I would encourage you to Visit HC's support forum to seek the support you so desire.
With that..

TTYL ;)

They dont want to legitimately ask questions. They want to trash you in public!

[bellestraker]

Why choose pennies when u can get the Dollars in no time ... choose deleted for SPAM now dude!


Gee...I wonder why YOU posted.??????

A tad obvious arent we??And rude.

Belle

[kglaser]

Gee...I wonder why YOU posted.??????

A tad obvious arent we??And rude.

Belle

You said it...tacky with a capital T.

[freecashspace]

And Belle.. Here is where I STOP playing your games with you I DO have a support forum, And from here on out, Considering GPTBoycott is NOT my support forum, If you have further Questions, I would encourage you to Visit HC's support forum to seek the support you so desire.Don't believe him, Belle. If you ask the 'wrong' questions in the HC support forum you'll get, as AnI puts it so well, pigpiled. Been there, done that. The result...

Did I know that thread was there??.. Yes!! However as soon as Wil began participating in that Discussion, I stopped, And that IS my right to not participate with him in ANY discussions... On ANY boards..imho.. Its much better than the fighting/bickering/argueing that ALWAYS occurs when discussing with Wil, Anyhow thats the reason I was not "Fully" monitoring that thread.
But Mike's banned me from the support forum, won't answer my questions in other forums, and won't even give me straight answers when I email him with support questions.

All this despite the fact that I've never broken HC rules. :\

Cheers,

Wil

[michaellaskey]

Don't believe him, Belle. If you ask the 'wrong' questions in the HC support forum you'll get, as AnI puts it so well, pigpiled. Been there, done that. The result...

NOBODY has been "Pigtailed".. However I WILL defend my self from the "Trolls" ;)


But Mike's banned me from the support forum, won't answer my questions in other forums, and won't even give me straight answers when I email him with support questions.

All this despite the fact that I've never broken HC rules. :\

Cheers,

Wil

Funny Wil.. You are the ONLY one banned from my Forum.. Out of 7000+ HC members.. And honestly.. Its your "Mouth" that I will NOT tolerate.. And I dont have to.. But you sit there and Lie to the world (And Yourself) MOST know that ANY forum Banning you get.. More than likely.. YOU DESERVE!! And with that.. I'm back ti Ignoring you and your self pittying ways..

Have a GREAT day Wil :cool:

[freecashspace]

Funny Wil.. You are the ONLY one banned from my Forum.. Out of 7000+ HC members.. And honestly.. Its your "Mouth" that I will NOT tolerate.. And I dont have to.. But you sit there and Lie to the world (And Yourself) MOST know that ANY forum Banning you get.. More than likely.. YOU DESERVE!! And with that.. I'm back ti Ignoring you and your self pittying ways..

Have a GREAT day Wil :cool:I always have a GREAT day, Mike.

And I, unlike yourself, haven't lied to anybody. Why would I? I've got nothing to lie about, and I'm always willing to back up what I say. Even people that don't agree with what I say know that.

Cheers,

Wil

[shadow]

Hi...how do you get them to "sign the tos"???

I am still looking for that old tos plug in or something

Rhonda...IM me ok?? thanks..cheri

You know the above is just a plain feeble excuse to nitpick and attack someone within a forums rules. What happen to you Will? You use to go after those that deserved it.

Common sense will. Anyone that clicks a button to join up in a ptr agrees to a sites terms of service. Just like when you walk into a store you agree to
maintain a acceptable level of behavior. just like when you go to a different city, state, or country. You agree to comply with their rules which are laws.

Ignorance of rules or laws is no excuse. This has been set in stone by the civil and criminal courts for hundreds of years.

See how it goes, Belle? You ask some perfectly reasonable questions, and instead of answers, you get insulted. :\

And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any straight answers, either. Heck, I can't even get a straight answer to my question about whether Mike is still behind on payments or not. I thought he was caught up, because the last time I requested payment, I was paid well within the Terms, and heaps of other people at GPF posted saying they did too. So I added HC back on my list of recommended programs thinking everything was cool, and telling people that Mike had succeeded in getting HC back on track. Now it appears that might not be true. :(

I've been saying things about HaulingCash that were misleading and untrue! According to Rhonda, that's a perfectly valid reason for deleting a member. :!:

Cheers,

Wil

Reasonable? Talk about putting a spin on terms. A while back you went after one for not having in the terms that members must be fluent in English.
ROFLMAO.......PTR..........PAID TO READ!!
You have gone beyond reasonable will. In fact your posts seldom have anything valid in them anymore. You grasp at any straw to slash these two webmasters. Anyone remembering your past posts from days gone by to your posting now. Would assume its something personal with you. Is it just vengence will? Why else do you just need to make trumpt up reasons to attack? Habit? Do you find it just plain fun?

Because some POs just don't like to be questioned, Belle. They don't feel the need to have to justify their actions. They operate on the principle that they're the boss, and they can do whatever they want, and if a member (or anybody else) doesn't like it, that's just too bad.

Cheers,

Wil

Most webmasters don't like to waste time on those in forums that are not asking legit questions. Who are instead trying to have a bash fest based on lamed reasons. You have no idea the amount of work it takes runing a ptr program. An you certainly have no idea the amount of cheating that goes on.
Yes they do have some rights will. They OWN that program. An will decide the terms of service and a sites policy. Why don't you post your site link here.
I am sure we can find something at fault to nitpick with you.

To think I once thought well enough of you. To ask if you wanted to be a administrative in a forum that I was thinking of creating. Will you have gone a full 90 degrees. From posting about reasonable complains to pure nonsense.

I have personaly using another name and gone after mike when he used to lose his temper in a forum. You know he has grown beyond that. He has learn to respond and leave his temper out of his posts. Is that what your hoping for to get him to blow steam and rage like in the past.

Why don't you go after the rip offs webmasters that do not pay their members will? Or do you just need to blindly attack for any farce of a reason?

By the way I have no form of connection with either hauling cash or wolfs. Nor do I belong to their programs. What I do have is a deep dislike of any form of RABID behavior. Be it defender or attacker!

Edited for spelling errors..............

[shadow]

I always have a GREAT day, Mike.

And I, unlike yourself, haven't lied to anybody. Why would I? I've got nothing to lie about, and I'm always willing to back up what I say. Even people that don't agree with what I say know that.

Cheers,

Wil

Their are many forms of lying as you well know. Such as so many of your so called points of complaints that are not relevant. Any fool can back up foolishness will. Any attacker can back up spite words. But you cannot back up most of your points because you left out the factor of common sense.
No doubt you can argue with more of the same. But being the same it again lacks any true and valid complaint. Nonsense stay nonsense. No matter how you dress it up. Saying your not lying will is a point I am more then happy to dispute with you. For example when you posted a complaint they didn't have members must know English. Come on your not stupid, or brand new to ptrs. You know darn well that this is paid to read. An non-fluent members joining are indeed cheating because they know in advance they cannot read the paid mails. YOU KNOW!! Therefor you LIE when you posted that complaint at GPF. You knew it was a unjust non-true complaint. But all you wanted to do was continue attacking. An this is not just a singilar happenstance of the same on your part.
People in the most part use their head will. An can tell the difference from valid complaints to pure nonsense.

edited for more spelling errors

[AnI4AnI]

Just to clarify something Shadow mentioned regarding webmaster's rights...they may have rights and it may be their site but they also have obligations...legal obligations...most of which have been ignored by many program owners, namely the "unconscionable" terms of service they employ.

We as members also have obligations albeit leaning more toward the ethical and moral side, but we also have legal responsibilities. We need to educate ourselves and others about the traps and pitfalls prevelant in this industry, and we need to provide law enforcement with the accurate information they need to investigate fraud.

Many crimes have been committed using the internet and quite a few people have been prosecuted, but it takes people reporting things to various agencies (Report Fraud) (http://www.gptboycott.com/articles/article1.php) who in turn provide authorities with details of what transpired as well as potential witnesses in the event of trials.

So, in summary, we can dance merrily around the outer hemisphere of the issues all we want but when the hammer comes down, the focus will have been predominantly about the question of the program owner's legal obligations, not whether or not a member failed an english test or if someone's mouse didn't work properly.

[shadow]

Just to clarify something Shadow mentioned regarding webmaster's rights...they may have rights and it may be their site but they also have obligations...legal obligations...most of which have been ignored by many program owners, namely the "unconscionable" terms of service they employ.

We as members also have obligations albeit leaning more toward the ethical and moral side, but we also have legal responsibilities. We need to educate ourselves and others about the traps and pitfalls prevelant in this industry, and we need to provide law enforcement with the accurate information they need to investigate fraud.

Many crimes have been committed using the internet and quite a few people have been prosecuted, but it takes people reporting things to various agencies (Report Fraud) (http://www.gptboycott.com/articles/article1.php) who in turn provide authorities with details of what transpired as well as potential witnesses in the event of trials.

So, in summary, we can dance merrily around the outer hemisphere of the issues all we want but when the hammer comes down, the focus will have been predominantly about the question of the program owner's legal obligations, not whether or not a member failed an english test or if someone's mouse didn't work properly.


Excuse me it doesn't work that way. The law is not one sided. It will not just be about a program owners legal obligations. But also the members conduct of
what resulted in their termination.

Go read any court cases involving issues of a employee/sub-contractors being released for misconduct. Which resulted in a civil suit by the x-employee/sub-contractor. Both sides have rights and obligations. The law is not a one way street. So the factor of failing a english test will also be consider. An the how and why of it.

Late............

Then they review all summitted information. Their may be court trials or just handled by judge or judges. But it will be base on their court finding on points of laws that apply to the area which the issue happened.

[AnI4AnI]

Perhaps in individual cases those things might be considered but I was referring to the fact that a judge could conceivably rule that the TOS are indeed nonlegally binding and hold the program owner responsible for presenting such invalid contracts to the general public where people joined "in good faith" and proceeded to uphold their end of the agreement all the while being forced to accept worse and worse conditions or risk losing their earnings.

In my opinion, when a PO sends out a cheat link or an english test, they should still be legally required to remit payment of any earnings to members who ultimately fail and get deleted from the program. After all, the member was a member in good standing before the test and they earned that money fair and square. It is these issues judges will be looking at, not whether or not a member had two windows opened at the same time or a timer expired or the subway train made the floor rumble, causing the mouse to move at the same second a link was clicked.

[shadow]

Perhaps in individual cases those things might be considered but I was referring to the fact that a judge could conceivably rule that the TOS are indeed nonlegally binding and hold the program owner responsible for presenting such invalid contracts to the general public where people joined "in good faith" and proceeded to uphold their end of the agreement all the while being forced to accept worse and worse conditions or risk losing their earnings.

In my opinion, when a PO sends out a cheat link or an english test, they should still be legally required to remit payment of any earnings to members who ultimately fail and get deleted from the program. After all, the member was a member in good standing before the test and they earned that money fair and square. It is these issues judges will be looking at, not whether or not a member had two windows opened at the same time or a timer expired or the subway train made the floor rumble, causing the mouse to move at the same second a link was clicked.

An they can rule the other way. Ifs.....don't matter. What exists now does.
Your make wide sweeping alegations again. Not all ptrs do as you state. An as far as I know. Physical world companies also change their by-laws and policies. They adjust as needed to changing business needs. The need to be flexable and do needed changes is a sound business practice. Offline as well as online.

Then your opinion is anyone convicted of embezzlement. Should be able to keep the funds they stoled by fraudulent appropriation. I am sure organize crime is cheering you on. An banks are not at this time. Exactly what do you think cheating is anyways? A game some members do? They do not deserve to be paid for fraudulent earnings that resulted from cheating/dishonest practices. Nonsense, honesty tests are not sent daily. Anyone cheating has been cheating normally from day one of membership. Do you think a employee caught stealing funds from the till is going to get a last paycheck? Doesn't happen.

An do you really think tax payers are going to have/allow judges to decide if a members mouse had a spasm or if the member cheated. ROFLMAO Only thing counts is the wrong click was done. Hitting someone with a car and saying you were blinded by someones flashlight is no excuse. A driver is always responsable for their actions. So are members that click a cheat link or a English test wrong answer.

Anyone that fails a fair English test is either not fluent in English, is using cheatware, or is not reading the text. I seen that English test and it was fair.
It was posted at GPF.
An then you have cheat links, and we now can add members that blind click mails. One by one or opening as many windows as they can an not reading the text nor viewing the ads.

CHEATING is fraudulent appropriation of cash earnings.........what don't you understand?

Advertisers pay to have both their ad text read and their ad page viewed by the members. An webmasters are responsible to advertisers and their members that dishonest members are removed.

Again what don't you understand?

more spelling errors.............

[moniopt]

Do you think a employee caught stealing funds from the till is going to get a last paycheck? Doesn't happen.



Yes it does happen! An employer cannot hold back a paycheck. They would have to deal with the "stealing" of funds as a separate issue.

Sort of like a tenant not being allowed to hold back rent from a landlord because of a fixing dispute.

[shadow]

Yes it does happen! An employer cannot hold back a paycheck. They would have to deal with the "stealing" of funds as a separate issue.

Sort of like a tenant not being allowed to hold back rent from a landlord because of a fixing dispute.

Post your proof........court case...........give link please. Because its not so in my state.

[bellestraker]

Don't believe him, Belle. If you ask the 'wrong' questions in the HC support forum you'll get, as AnI puts it so well, pigpiled. Been there, done that. The result...




Tell me it isn't so.!! lol

Actually I have been pigpiled by the worst...the best... and every notch up the scale and I'm still here so what the hell...I'll probably survive the next one.

In fact if I want to be honest..I have even been accused of doing a bit myself??
( we all know thats NOT true)



But Mike's banned me from the support forum, won't answer my questions in other forums, and won't even give me straight answers when I email him with support questions.

All this despite the fact that I've never broken HC rules. :\

Cheers,

Wil





Must be your nit picking ways..lol

Actually you used to drive me absolutely crazy with some of your "points" ( especially the one about HC...sending too many emails - according to their tos) and of course the ays posts which were some of the first and I SURE did see them as nit picking at its best.( and IMO..THEN.. was target posting.)

Then I started reading your posts a little more carefully and found that it isnt a case of targetting...and YES..you are often nit picky..But what I have learned from them is that you do not waffle or flip flop on tos.

You do not target..( although when you get "onto something" you can become worse than a dog with a beloved bone)you will move over to any new found breach just as fast.

You want across the board COMPLETE compliance with tos...no matter how large or minor the breach may be and I guess its pretty hard to argue with that.( Realistic...I dont know..but I sure have no other suggestions)

Each of us has different ideas of what is important...and why it is..
so it seems that unless they are completely followed it would be impossible to decide..WHICH ones we should worry about.

If some tos are silly or meaningless ( like the " I agree to send not more than x amount of emails per day" )then what the hell are they still there for.
Am I the only one with a delete key??

My only problem remains...are they even legal..or is it kinda like demanding that everyone follow a set of rules with more twists and turns that the 401 and about the same amount of common sense in building..

I know they are all we have but it still seems like it would be relatively simple to have this one issue settled LEGALLY...and then we can go from there.(Easy to SAY)

In a thread about the legality we had two completely opposing opinions on legality ( or not)from what appears to be ..two old time - and well informed...members.


What do I know...Its the Sunday after a family barbeque/gathering and last night was akin to a re-enactment of the Sioux greeting Custer..so..hmmm.
Going back to bed..or maybe not.
Who cares lol

Have a good one

Belle

[moniopt]

Post your proof........court case...........give link please. Because its not so in my state.


The Fair Labor Standards Act requires payment for wages, except for authorized deductions.

What State you live in? I will look it up. Maybe it doesn't apply to where you live, but I really, really doubt it.

Let me know what State you are in. BTW, where is your proof?

[bellestraker]

Post your proof........court case...........give link please. Because its not so in my state.




You mean...right up there beside yours.

To say it isnt so "In your state" but not say what state it is.. doesnt give much opportunity to search it out.

I dont even have to go search links.

I read the paper..I work in business..I talk to employers and employees.

If someone were fired for stealing...they still have to be paid all monies owed.
The theft is a totally seperate issue.

Please post your proof that this is not so.

Have a good one

Belle

[AnI4AnI]

I was at an accident scene before where an elderly woman ploughed through an intersection, colliding with other cars and causing serious injuries but the police nor anyone else held her responsible because it was obvious the rising sun momentarily blinded her, as it did numerous other drivers at that particular intersection at that particular time of morning....and that was what was written in the police report and most likely what the insurance company went by when assessing her premiums and damages. No one shamed her or hollered at her or pointed fingers. However, it would have been different if it was determined she was talking on a cellphone, hunting for a cd and trying to light a cigarette. There is a difference between someone being negligent and someone being a victim of circumstance.

No one is disputing that real world companies can't change their policies, Shadow....but when they do, they can't tell employees they have to either accept the new terms or walk out the door without being paid back-wages. It's all covered in Contract Law. I'd love to see a company do that, see how long before they find their pompous little butts in court. But...we're not talking about real, legal, legitimate contracts here, are we? And that is what will be the focus if and when this whole sordid mess ever does find it's way into a courtroom. I'd be willing to bet most judges would take one look at the line, "You have no other recourse other than to accept new terms or relinquish your earnings..." Oh, would I love to be there when these program owners are called upon to justify that, especially when they turn around and delete people willy nilly for the slightest infractions....that will be one heck of an interesting sight.

[AnI4AnI]

My point is, failing a cheat test is one thing, delete the member if that's your bag but pay them what you owe them. They were the ones who earned it, not the program owner. I think the PO who withholds people's earnings are a lot more guilty of wrongdoing than a member who fails an english test....that is not to say that cheaters like the one Freebiesite recently had a problem with, who checked all the boxes in the interest categories should be paid, since they did that at the onset of membership and it wasn't until 9 days later that she discovered it. Again, there is a difference between someone blatantly scamming from the get-go, and someone who has been doing everything right, up until that moment they click the wrong link in an email....or the many members of other sites who were deleted for forum abuse which had been subsequently added to the TOS long after the members had been waiting for payouts and which is purely subjective, therefore not even complying with contract law. Heck, I wouldn't have minded one bit getting deleted from these scam-sites but they should have paid me what I earned. Now look what they've created. ;)

[bluedahlia]

Common sense will. Anyone that clicks a button to join up in a ptr agrees to a sites terms of service. Just like when you walk into a store you agree to
maintain a acceptable level of behavior. just like when you go to a different city, state, or country. You agree to comply with their rules which are laws.

Ignorance of rules or laws is no excuse. This has been set in stone by the civil and criminal courts for hundreds of years.

Why don't you go after the rip offs webmasters that do not pay their members will? Or do you just need to blindly attack for any farce of a reason?

By the way I have no form of connection with either hauling cash or wolfs. Nor do I belong to their programs. What I do have is a deep dislike of any form of RABID behavior. Be it defender or attacker!

Edited for spelling errors..............

Well from what I've seen Wil doesn't limit his remarks to the so called "rip offs"........he doesn't base his comments on the "buddy system". If he sees something he doesn't like, you can bet your bottom dollar he will comment, be it friend or foe.

Also, as far as legalities are concerned........in the legal field, nothing is considered "common sense". Everything must be S P E L L E D out. Have you ever read a legal document? Pages and pages to cover just one point. There are never any grey areas, or points not covered and left to interpretation or "common sense".

That's why, as things now stand, the courts would not even entertain PTR cases. There is no legal binding commitment and the TOS are too vague.

[shadow]

The Fair Labor Standards Act requires payment for wages, except for authorized deductions.

What State you live in? I will look it up. Maybe it doesn't apply to where you live, but I really, really doubt it.

Let me know what State you are in. BTW, where is your proof?


Do you really think ptrs are covered by FLSA? Many jobs off line are not covered by FLSA. Different areas have thrir own laws that cover employee theft. An are not at all subjected to FLSA.

http://www.pubklaw.com/regs/68fr15560.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-labor-law

Do you think this person got a final check?

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/olms/USvsLStewart0204.htm

Anyways.........I did request you to post your proof first. Need some help? Now why should I supply what you ask for? When you do not do so when I requested it first?

But we will give you some information. Laws very from region, even FLSA is not enforcable in many areas because the job is not cover by that law.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fairpay/regulations_final.htm

Can You Withhold Wages from an Employee
Who Caused You Damage?

Suppose you terminate an employee who blows off a crucial customer meeting and causes you to lose a lucrative sale, or stupidly deletes computer data that takes thousands of dollars to rebuild? Thereafter, you learn that you owe the employee for accrued vacation time and expense reimbursements. Do you have to pay it, or can you charge the employee for the damage done to your company?

Check with counsel. Many states have “wage payment” laws (with “wages” being very broadly defined) that severely restrict the right of an employer to withhold sums the employer claims to be due (as opposed to paying all back wages, and suing for damages). These laws usually include severe penalty provisions, such as counsel fee entitlements for the employee, fines, treble or other enhanced damages, and so on.

http://www.powelltrachtman.com/avoiding-lawsuits060104.htm

Many states is not ALL. An then again PTRS would have to fit into their guidlines to qualify.

Now here is a case that was changed later. Because the defendant was later found not to be gulity. However if that court decesion had been upheld. He would of been denied his past wagees. Which shows it to be a very legal act to deny wages if requested at the trial during criminal procedures for employee theft. At least in that region.

http://www.lawphil.net/judjuris/juri1993/sep1993/gr_75025_1993.html

Point is its hardly likely that a fire former employee convicted of theft from employer. Is going to even try to see if any past wages are still collectable.
An it would seem highly likely that a employer that takes the time to prosecute for employee theft will indeed seek the courts allowance to deny the former employee and past wages.

[freebiesite]

You know the above is just a plain feeble excuse to nitpick and attack someone within a forums rules. What happen to you Will? You use to go after those that deserved it.

..............

I am really puzzled as to why you would quote me asking Rhonda where she got that tos plug in..??

I have been looking for something like that..and she and I chatted, I bought the plug in and am waiting for the script writer to help me install it

thanks to me asking on these boards another nice person also gave me a link to a small script that can be adapted on cc sites as a checkbox thingy

I am not even "in" this particular firefight...I just asked for some tech/plug in help and am grateful to have recieved it ..thanks

[shadow]

Well from what I've seen Wil doesn't limit his remarks to the so called "rip offs"........he doesn't base his comments on the "buddy system". If he sees something he doesn't like, you can bet your bottom dollar he will comment, be it friend or foe.

Also, as far as legalities are concerned........in the legal field, nothing is considered "common sense". Everything must be S P E L L E D out. Have you ever read a legal document? Pages and pages to cover just one point. There are never any grey areas, or points not covered and left to interpretation or "common sense".

That's why, as things now stand, the courts would not even entertain PTR cases. There is no legal binding commitment and the TOS are too vague.

Sorry....our common law is based from England from common sense by those who created those laws. Deciding that laws shall be based on how past disputed were ruled in the same general areas. Said much better here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Judges do apply common sense when they have leeway in court cases. An again that generization, not all tos are vague.
Then again whats vague to you maybe crystical clear to others.
As for his comments by wil, he has crossed the line from justifiable complaints to publicity forum harashment. Using anything to nitpick at these two webmasters. Both are paying members. both do site work, both do anti-cheat measures, and both do reply to their members. Wil talents could be better use attacking scam sites. Not just to have fun nitpicking or persecuting two honest webmaster for what ever reasons he may have. Do the words "going to far" ring a bell with you?

[shadow]

I am really puzzled as to why you would quote me asking Rhonda where she got that tos plug in..??

I have been looking for something like that..and she and I chatted, I bought the plug in and am waiting for the script writer to help me install it

thanks to me asking on these boards another nice person also gave me a link to a small script that can be adapted on cc sites as a checkbox thingy

I am not even "in" this particular firefight...I just asked for some tech/plug in help and am grateful to have recieved it ..thanks


Because being a human, I will make a mistake at times. My apologies.

[moniopt]

Do you really think ptrs are covered by FLSA? Many jobs off line are not covered by FLSA. Different areas have thrir own laws that cover employee theft. An are not at all subjected to FLSA.



Who is talking about it covering PTRS??? I cetainly didn't. I was commenting on the following quote by you.

Do you think a employee caught stealing funds from the till is going to get a last paycheck? Doesn't happen.



If you are talking about someone stealing from the till, it's a good bet you're talking about an offline company.

Now stop clouding up what I was disagreeing with and let me know what State you live in that allows offline companies to hold back someone's pay check for whatever reason. Either do that or stop wasting my time.

[AnI4AnI]

Many laws are based on common sense and sound, practical reasoning....and there are grey areas...plenty of them. Why do you think there was such a knock-down, drag-out fight between the parents of the girl who the courts just pulled the feeding tube from (Terri Shaivo) and her ex-husband? There are tons of grey areas and some laws are interpreted differently from one day to the next, from one courtroom to the next.

Just because the standard TOS in this industry might not be considered legal and binding doesn't mean the courts won't eventually understand the depths of the fraud that's been taking place....and that goes for program owners and cheaters alike. Hopefully, they will be just as amused as I am that some of the very people who are earnestly tracking down cheaters are just as guilty of stealing from others, using a more sophisticated method and disguised as "business."

[shadow]

I was at an accident scene before where an elderly woman ploughed through an intersection, colliding with other cars and causing serious injuries but the police nor anyone else held her responsible because it was obvious the rising sun momentarily blinded her, as it did numerous other drivers at that particular intersection at that particular time of morning....and that was what was written in the police report and most likely what the insurance company went by when assessing her premiums and damages. No one shamed her or hollered at her or pointed fingers. However, it would have been different if it was determined she was talking on a cellphone, hunting for a cd and trying to light a cigarette. There is a difference between someone being negligent and someone being a victim of circumstance.

No one is disputing that real world companies can't change their policies, Shadow....but when they do, they can't tell employees they have to either accept the new terms or walk out the door without being paid back-wages. It's all covered in Contract Law. I'd love to see a company do that, see how long before they find their pompous little butts in court. But...we're not talking about real, legal, legitimate contracts here, are we? And that is what will be the focus if and when this whole sordid mess ever does find it's way into a courtroom. I'd be willing to bet most judges would take one look at the line, "You have no other recourse other than to accept new terms or relinquish your earnings..." Oh, would I love to be there when these program owners are called upon to justify that, especially when they turn around and delete people willy nilly for the slightest infractions....that will be one heck of an interesting sight.

Clicking a cheat link is hardly a victim of circumstances. Most ptr sites I elong to send update notices to their members regarding change of tos. An I not saying that some sites don't have illegal clauses in their terms. Not every site has "You have no other recourse other than to accept new terms or relinquish your earnings..."

You know a lot of heart break could be prevent in members do what they should do. Is read a sites tos. Those that don't and later suffer for it. Are just as much as fault as the webmaster that is scammy. Why join a crooks site. Read the tos. Members need to protect themselfs. An be responsible, meaning read tos, and do research on the site before joining.

I rather doubt that will happen in my life time. Concerning legal systems deciding if a tos of a site is binding. Who is going to pay for it? How will it get up from the bottom of the list to the "do portion" of the list.
Then you have the fun of trying to apply one regions court ruling on a business that is international. Court rulings are not enforceable out side one countrys borders. Unless prior agreements are made with other countries.
An I just don't see ptrs tos coming up for debate at the United Nations.

[AnI4AnI]

Uh, I didn't say "clicking a cheat link is a victim of circumstance." Please don't take my posts out of context. I was simply referring to the complaint two or three members seem to be having with this particular test where they've shown that, when certain criteria applies, the wrong link can, in fact be clicked. Also, in the case of the person who admitted she opens more than one window or where she actually did click both links, she should still be paid for the money she earned prior to the test. It was earned by her, not the program owner.

If you are hired at a diamond shipping company and 6 months into the job they give you a drug test and you fail, do you think they have the right to request all earnings from you be given back? Isn't that basically what's happening here?

If it's THAT important for a program owner to determine who speaks english and who doesn't, or who pays attention and who doesn't then by all means they need to test these people BEFORE they earn, not after!

[shadow]

My point is, failing a cheat test is one thing, delete the member if that's your bag but pay them what you owe them. They were the ones who earned it, not the program owner. I think the PO who withholds people's earnings are a lot more guilty of wrongdoing than a member who fails an english test....that is not to say that cheaters like the one Freebiesite recently had a problem with, who checked all the boxes in the interest categories should be paid, since they did that at the onset of membership and it wasn't until 9 days later that she discovered it. Again, there is a difference between someone blatantly scamming from the get-go, and someone who has been doing everything right, up until that moment they click the wrong link in an email....or the many members of other sites who were deleted for forum abuse which had been subsequently added to the TOS long after the members had been waiting for payouts and which is purely subjective, therefore not even complying with contract law. Heck, I wouldn't have minded one bit getting deleted from these scam-sites but they should have paid me what I earned. Now look what they've created. ;)

An my point is their is no such owing earnings to anyone that is caught cheating or failing a English test. Members are told in terms of service what they are paid to do. Read and view ads. Catching cheaters not preforming these requirements means they are not entitled to pay. Because they did not read and view the ads.
Do you think cheating is just a one time thing done on just on one day? Would you prefer to have cheat links and English test sent daily? They are deleted as soon as they are caught. An are not entitled to any earnings they have because they were cheating.
Go ahead......open a site and do it your way. Besure to have lots of your own cash on hand. Because the cheater will never leave you. They will get ips like aol. An as fast as you delete them. They will rejoin and drain you dry. Until you been a webmaster you have no idea the anount of cheating that is done.
An it never stops, a good percentage of new members are non-fluent in English, use bots, blind clixk, have multi accounts, and so on. Their are cheat forums, cheat groups, and heaven knows what else. Cheatware is constantly being improved. Make no mistake, cheating is not a small random thing in ptrs.

[dcwike]

Yes it does happen! An employer cannot hold back a paycheck. They would have to deal with the "stealing" of funds as a separate issue.

Sort of like a tenant not being allowed to hold back rent from a landlord because of a fixing dispute.


If the amount stolen from the til is less than the amount owed to an employee, then, the amount stolen can legitimately be deducted from the paycheck, and the employee terminated.

And, tenant's, through legal escrow accounts, CAN hold the landlord from collecting rent until the fixing dispute is either arbitrated or, if the disrepair falls under rules of hazzard standards set by the city/county, the repair is made.

But, unfortunately, prior to clicking a cheat link, there is no proof positive that the member cheated. It can be assumed, but, not proven.

Now, the clause in most tos pertaining to loss of earnings, I think, is unreasonable. Per say, if I join a program, and, later, decide it's not for me, I feel I should be paid for what I did to earn the money - even if I did not reach payout. Now, the PO should be allowed to deduct processing fees for the payment - or, charge a fee for early request of payment. And, add a stipulation that that those who choose to cancel their accounts must wait 6 months before he can re-sign up for the program - or not be allowed to sign up again.

Cheaters are everywhere - not only in PTR. And, though it's sad for any owner of any business, by law, if that employee, sub-contracter, or ptr member did any cheating w/o being caught, or cannot be proved, they must be paid what they are owed.

I think, if such changes ARE made in tos, PTR would gain a bit more respect as well as open the potential for more honest members.

[shadow]

Uh, I didn't say "clicking a cheat link is a victim of circumstance." Please don't take my posts out of context. I was simply referring to the complaint two or three members seem to be having with this particular test where they've shown that, when certain criteria applies, the wrong link can, in fact be clicked. Also, in the case of the person who admitted she opens more than one window or where she actually did click both links, she should still be paid for the money she earned prior to the test. It was earned by her, not the program owner.

If you are hired at a diamond shipping company and 6 months into the job they give you a drug test and you fail, do you think they have the right to request all earnings from you be given back? Isn't that basically what's happening here?

If it's THAT important for a program owner to determine who speaks english and who doesn't, or who pays attention and who doesn't then by all means they need to test these people BEFORE they earn, not after!

I never did...........your past posts were about clicking a link and so called mouse problems. Are you telling me now its not related?

An God can decide to click a wrong link. But I doubt if thats going to happen either. How about a shock..........like let the member take responsibility for his/hers own actions. Or is it just better to blaime it on the webmaster, any old excuse will do so its not the members fault. Right?

Excuse me anyone that click two links when only one was called for failed the english/cheat link. The text said only one did it not?

[moniopt]

If the amount stolen from the til is less than the amount owed to an employee, then, the amount stolen can legitimately be deducted from the paycheck, and the employee terminated.



Not true (not legally where I live anyway) They would need to prove it first. They (employer) can't act as Judge and Jury and pass out the sentence.

As far as the rent, if there is an Escrow acciount, wouldn't that have to be done through the courts? If so, you proved my point. A tenant can't take it upon themself to hold back rent because of a fixing dispute (in N.Y. anyway). Although it is done all the time , I am talking legally...

[AnI4AnI]

Too many program owners are under the mistaken impression they have a perfect right to make up their own rules and laws as they go along, and too many members buy into it.

There are many government web-sites available which are dedicated to educating people about internet fraud and how to protect ouselves from it...what signs to look for, etc. Yes, members have a responsibility to research before they jump head first into things but that doesn't make what these sites are doing any more legal.

[AnI4AnI]

Geez, Shadow, you act like some of us just stepped off the bus into PTR-land. I'd be willing to bet there are people in this thread that have a lot more experience than you....and have participated in discussions not unlike this one, many times over.

If cheaters are that much of a problem then the POs need to find non-intrusive ways of dealing with them, rather than making blanket statements in the TOS to cover any decision they want to make and they have to comply with baisc, internationally accepted business laws.

Someday, a precedent may be set when the right case goes before the right judge and jury and I bet dollars to donuts much of the practices going on now will be scoffed at in a court of law...and some people will have a very rude awakening.

[shadow]

If the amount stolen from the til is less than the amount owed to an employee, then, the amount stolen can legitimately be deducted from the paycheck, and the employee terminated.

And, tenant's, through legal escrow accounts, CAN hold the landlord from collecting rent until the fixing dispute is either arbitrated or, if the disrepair falls under rules of hazzard standards set by the city/county, the repair is made.

But, unfortunately, prior to clicking a cheat link, there is no proof positive that the member cheated. It can be assumed, but, not proven.

Now, the clause in most tos pertaining to loss of earnings, I think, is unreasonable. Per say, if I join a program, and, later, decide it's not for me, I feel I should be paid for what I did to earn the money - even if I did not reach payout. Now, the PO should be allowed to deduct processing fees for the payment - or, charge a fee for early request of payment. And, add a stipulation that that those who choose to cancel their accounts must wait 6 months before he can re-sign up for the program - or not be allowed to sign up again.

Cheaters are everywhere - not only in PTR. And, though it's sad for any owner of any business, by law, if that employee, sub-contracter, or ptr member did any cheating w/o being caught, or cannot be proved, they must be paid what they are owed.

I think, if such changes ARE made in tos, PTR would gain a bit more respect as well as open the potential for more honest members.

Well part of this is my fault......I to made earlier a generalization.

"If the amount stolen from the til is less than the amount owed to an employee, then, the amount stolen can legitimately be deducted from the paycheck, and the employee terminated."

Depend on many factors, region, type of job, country...........

Now, the clause in most tos pertaining to loss of earnings, I think, is unreasonable. Per say, if I join a program, and, later, decide it's not for me, I feel I should be paid for what I did to earn the money - even if I did not reach payout. Now, the PO should be allowed to deduct processing fees for the payment - or, charge a fee for early request of payment. And, add a stipulation that that those who choose to cancel their accounts must wait 6 months before he can re-sign up for the program - or not be allowed to sign up again.

Now I can feel for you on this. But the fact is you did join and knew what the requirements were to reach payout. Thats your fault not the sites. You have zero rights dictating what a webmaster must place in their terms. They have the right to decide not you. If you do not like a sites terms, then do not join.

You have no idea of the information that CC scripts and plugins can supply to show a member has been cheating. If you did you never would of made such a comment. Some sites use a hall of shame to keep records why they cheat. What do you want to keep all information at the site forever until bandwidth costs exceed income? Or do you expect webmasters to run monthly reports at different sites/forums reporting who is cheating. Its enough they know who has cheated.

No not by law. Laws vary by region and by class of employment.

Your such ideas are both impratical and unrealistic. Cheaters that steal from a site should never profit from it.

[shadow]

Who is talking about it covering PTRS??? I cetainly didn't. I was commenting on the following quote by you.



If you are talking about someone stealing from the till, it's a good bet you're talking about an offline company.

Now stop clouding up what I was disagreeing with and let me know what State you live in that allows offline companies to hold back someone's pay check for whatever reason. Either do that or stop wasting my time.

Oh please you posted in this thread regarding my total post which that comment was directed at why ptrs do not have to pay cheaters. Then you made a generalization statement using FLSA.

Better go back and read my post and yours. Till or earnings same principle applies to theft by any form of employee online or off.

Quite the character you are. You demand to know what state I am but have never replied to my request to post your proof. Posting url for FLSA isn't proof. So show me some court cases on this subject.

As for wasting time, your wasting mine with your side steping, no show of evidence to support anything you say. Until you post your proof as I requested I will not respond to any more of your posts. After all I ask first, remember?

An posting a general url for the Department of labor or Supreme Court doesn't cut it either. Show your exact proof in black and white. Otherwise take your stories to someone foolish enough to swallow it.

[moniopt]

Oh please you posted in this thread regarding my total post which that comment was directed at why ptrs do not have to pay cheaters. Then you made a generalization statement using FLSA.

Better go back and read my post and yours. Till or earnings same principle applies to theft by any form of employee online or off.

Quite the character you are. You demand to know what state I am but have never replied to my request to post your proof. Posting url for FLSA isn't proof. So show me some court cases on this subject.

As for wasting time, your wasting mine with your side steping, no show of evidence to support anything you say. Until you post your proof as I requested I will not respond to any more of your posts. After all I ask first, remember?

An posting a general url for the Department of labor or Supreme Court doesn't cut it either. Show your exact proof in black and white. Otherwise take your stories to someone foolish enough to swallow it.

You don't have a clue period! That is the truth. I quoted a part of your post and not the whole thing and I added this.

The Fair Labor Standards Act requires payment for wages, except for authorized deductions.

What State you live in? I will look it up. Maybe it doesn't apply to where you live, but I really, really doubt it.

Let me know what State you are in. BTW, where is your proof?

Check out what I have in bold. You need to comprehend a little better.

Yet after this entire BS...you still haven't told me the State you live in! Then I WILL get you evidence. Is that so hard to understand??

No stories hear my friend, just someone who has a clue, and knows what they are talking about.

I am done even wasting my time with someone who obviously needs to get better educated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/moniopt/niceday.gif

[AnI4AnI]

Cheaters that steal from a site should never profit from it.

We are not talking specifically about people using cheat-bots, are we? No. We are talking about a couple members who clicked the wrong link in an email, but who can speak and comprehend english very well and who, up until that point, was considered a member in good standing. Therefore, the money they earned up until then should have been remitted to them, and let the program owner delete them if they so desire. We are not arguing that matter. We are simply saying the members should have been paid.

[shadow]

Geez, Shadow, you act like some of us just stepped off the bus into PTR-land. I'd be willing to bet there are people in this thread that have a lot more experience than you....and have participated in discussions not unlike this one, many times over.

If cheaters are that much of a problem then the POs need to find non-intrusive ways of dealing with them, rather than making blanket statements in the TOS to cover any decision they want to make and they have to comply with baisc, internationally accepted business laws.

Someday, a precedent may be set when the right case goes before the right judge and jury and I bet dollars to donuts much of the practices going on now will be scoffed at in a court of law...and some people will have a very rude awakening.

Then give pratical suggestions and just complaints. An saying that about Pos isn't a blanket statements? Come on your putting every one into the same pot. Show me where most tos break USA laws let alone International laws.
Post your exact proof. For each thing you say is breaking a law. This blanket wide sweep generalization is nothing more then for some to justfy their favorite thing in a forum. Complaining about everything and anything. Just to join in attacking any webmaster. Some members in forum are chronic complainers about things that are not valid complaints. An their so called suggestion are totaly impractical. A few forum members post valid complaints with workable suggestions. I sure haven't seen any in this thread that are valid.

[shadow]

We are not talking specifically about people using cheat-bots, are we? No. We are talking about a couple members who clicked the wrong link in an email, but who can speak and comprehend english very well and who, up until that point, was considered a member in good standing. Therefore, the money they earned up until then should have been remitted to them, and let the program owner delete them if they so desire. We are not arguing that matter. We are simply saying the members should have been paid.

I mention...........blind clicking.....cheatware usage. Why else did they not read and follow the instructions in the text. Cheaters are very good in dreaming up excuses to try to get out of clicking a cheat link or a English test.
Nope.....caught cheating means your a cheater and not entitle to any earnings. You open a ptr and pay your cheaters. Better have a lot of money on hand.

[freecashspace]

You know the above is just a plain feeble excuse to nitpick and attack someone within a forums rules. What happen to you Will? You use to go after those that deserved it.Deserved it according to who? You? So you think I ought to check with you before I post to see if you approve? No thanks. I'll go ahead and make up my own mind.

Common sense will. Anyone that clicks a button to join up in a ptr agrees to a sites terms of service. Just like when you walk into a store you agree to maintain a acceptable level of behavior. just like when you go to a different city, state, or country. You agree to comply with their rules which are laws.

Ignorance of rules or laws is no excuse. This has been set in stone by the civil and criminal courts for hundreds of years.When did I ever use ignorance of the rules as an excuse? Yes, when a member joins a PTR they agree to the Terms of Service. And likewise, every PTR owner that starts a PTR does as well. It's a two-way agreement. Yet we see plenty of POs who don't keep up their side of the agreement.

Reasonable? Talk about putting a spin on terms. A while back you went after one for not having in the terms that members must be fluent in English. ROFLMAO.......PTR..........PAID TO READ!! You have gone beyond reasonable will. In fact your posts seldom have anything valid in them anymore. You grasp at any straw to slash these two webmasters. Anyone remembering your past posts from days gone by to your posting now. Would assume its something personal with you. Is it just vengence will? Why else do you just need to make trumpt up reasons to attack? Habit? Do you find it just plain fun?Think what you like, but I don't see what's unreasonable about expecting PTR owners to put it in their Terms if they expect members to be fluent in English. I'm not saying they shouldn't expect their members to be fluent in English. I just think if that's part of the deal, they should include it in their Terms.

Most webmasters don't like to waste time on those in forums that are not asking legit questions. Who are instead trying to have a bash fest based on lamed reasons.You may think otherwise, but I think asking if a PO is behind on payments or not is a 'legit' question. I've explained my very legit reason for asking it. Because I don't promote programs that are behind on payments. I started promoting HC again because I thought Mike was caught up. I don't want to promote it if he's not.

You have no idea the amount of work it takes runing a ptr program. An you certainly have no idea the amount of cheating that goes on.Actually, I do have some idea. No first-hand experience, though. I also have no first-hand experience in running a bank, a hospital, or major metropolitan fire department. But despite this total lack of experience, I still expect my banker to keep my money safe, my doctor not to kill me, and the fire dept. to do their best to keep my house from burning down.

Yes they do have some rights will. They OWN that program. An will decide the terms of service and a sites policy.Sure they have rights. They also have responsibilities.

I have personaly using another name and gone after mike when he used to lose his temper in a forum. You know he has grown beyond that. He has learn to respond and leave his temper out of his posts. Is that what your hoping for to get him to blow steam and rage like in the past.No, I'd rather Mike not pop his cork in this or any other forum. I think he's doing much better, and I think the idea of getting somebody else to handle his PR makes good sense. Apart from everything else, I think it's better for a program if the PO behaves in a professional manner.

Why don't you go after the rip offs webmasters that do not pay their members will?I do.

Cheers,

Wil

[AnI4AnI]

I mention...........blind clicking.....cheatware usage. Why else did they not read and follow the instructions in the text. Cheaters are very good in dreaming up excuses to try to get out of clicking a cheat link or a English test.
Nope.....caught cheating means your a cheater and not entitle to any earnings. You open a ptr and pay your cheaters. Better have a lot of money on hand.

And just like in the analogy I used before about the diamond shipping job, if an employee fails a drug test, they are not required to pay back any previous earnings, even if the employer suspects they had been using drugs on the job. Your arguments don't hold water, Shadow. You cannot assume someone was cheating the entire rest of the time just because they failed a test. The objective is to reduce cheaters so find a way to do that BEFORE they earn.

[AnI4AnI]

Shadow, you insist on us providing proof and whatnot. Just do a search here and at GPF for the words:

Unconscionability
Unconsionable
Matois
Jypsy
Contract Law

That should keep you occupied awhile. :)

[freecashspace]

Their are many forms of lying as you well know. Such as so many of your so called points of complaints that are not relevant. Any fool can back up foolishness will. Any attacker can back up spite words. But you cannot back up most of your points because you left out the factor of common sense.OK Shadow, enlighten me. Please tell me about the many forms of lying.

Here are some of the forms that I know about.

First, there's you basic, garden variety lie. Knowingly presenting a false statement as being true, for the purpose of deception.

Then there's a lie of omission, where you purposefully withhold the truth.

Other things that I think could be considered forms of lying, since the purpose is to deceive or mislead others, or to avoid the truth, would be things like changing the subject of a discussion, deliberately trying to confuse the issue, or tossing the odd red herring into the middle of a discussion. Oh look! A pretty butterfly! ;)

Saying your not lying will is a point I am more then happy to dispute with you.Don't hold back. Feel free to get started whenever you're ready.

For example when you posted a complaint they didn't have members must know English. Come on your not stupid, or brand new to ptrs. You know darn well that this is paid to read. An non-fluent members joining are indeed cheating because they know in advance they cannot read the paid mails. YOU KNOW!! Therefor you LIE when you posted that complaint at GPF. You knew it was a unjust non-true complaint. But all you wanted to do was continue attacking. An this is not just a singilar happenstance of the same on your part. People in the most part use their head will. An can tell the difference from valid complaints to pure nonsense.Well, I don't really see how anything I've said about the 'English/Reading Test' is any sort of a lie, but I do agree that it's something that probably deserves a bit of an explanation.

First, I'll say this. I know cheaters are a problem in this business. I know they cause problems for POs, and that they cause problems for me, both as a member and an advertiser. The multiple signups. The clickbots. The link-sharing. And maybe the biggest problem in this entire business -- people who are on 'autopilot' and don't read the emails and don't pay any attention to the advertiser's websites.

I know something has to be done. I not only accept it, I encourage it. That doesn't mean I accept an 'anything goes' approach to dealing with the problems, though.

Is it really too much to ask that Program Owners create clear rules about what they want from members? If they want their members to be fluent in English, then why not just say so in the TOS? If the PO expects members to read each email, then click the link, then view the advertiser's website until the timer expires, then why not just say so in the TOS? To me, that is common sense. But how many PTRs have Terms that spell this stuff out? Instead the argument is made that they shouldn't have to because it's all just common sense. Thanks, but I'd prefer some proper, written rules.

Why does it matter? Do I want to create a complex bunch of rules so cheaters can find loopholes and get away with doing the wrong thing? I think if I went back and read my posts again (I can't right now -- no access to GPF), it might look that way. A have to admit, I was probably a defense attorney in a past life.

But my main goal isn't to find ways for a bunch of 'cheaters' to get away with doing the wrong thing. What I'd like to see are some simple, clear rules that explain exactly what's expected of members, as well as what isn't acceptable. Of course I also think it's important for POs to follow the Terms, too. But I'll save that for another post. Because here's what I really, really want to say.

The reason I'd like to see clear-cut rules instead of relying on 'common sense' or arbitrary decisions by Program Owners is because I think it might encourage more 'regular' people to give PTRs a try. Because honest, the way most PTRs are run now, it's a bit of a hard sell.

Imagine this conversation:

'So, it's called 'paid to read'....so you get paid to read, right?'

'Well, actually no. Because unless somebody's looking over your shoulder, it's pretty hard to know if you've read something or not. So there's a link that you have to click, and that takes you to the advertiser's website, and then you check out that website until this timer expires. Then you get paid.'

'Oh, OK. So what if I don't like the advertiser's website? Can I close that browser window, read another email and visit another website?'

'Um, no. Because the server doesn't know you're not looking at the first advertiser's website, and it won't let you look at two at the same time. So even though you chose not to get paid for the first one, you still have to wait until that first timer would have expired before you can view the next website.'

'Oh, OK. So I read some emails, check out some websites, and then I get paid, right?'

'Yeah, sort of. See, it's not practical for the owner to pay a fraction of a cent into your PayPal account every time you read an ad, so most PTRs have a minimum amount you have to earn before you can get paid. This can easily range between 1 and 100 dollars. These days most are around 5 or 10 dollars.'

'So I save up all the fractions of cents and when they add up to the minimum payment, I get paid?'

'Yeah. Well, usually. Some PTR owners pay quickly -- within hours, or maybe a few days after you request. Some take longer. 30 days isn't uncommon.'

'Yeah, I remember reading that in the Terms of Service. That seems like a long time to take to pay somebody, but I guess if they're really busy, it could take that long. What happens if they're late?'

'Nothing. Too bad for you. You just have to be patient. Keep reading and clicking.'

'You mean the owners don't have to follow their own rules?'

'Nope. And they can change the rules at any time. And if you don't like the new rules, all you can do is quit, and give up any earnings in your account.'

'Really?'

'Yep. And the owner can delete your account and refuse to pay you for any reason, or even for no reason.'

'So you have to do everything they want you to do, or they don't pay you? But they don't have to follow any rules themselves?'

'Basically.'

'Is that legal? Can you take them to court?'

'Over five bucks?'

'Hmmm...I see your point. So in the end, you just have to put your faith in the owners, and trust that they'll do the right thing.'

'Yeah.'

'Not interested.'Like I said before, I understand the importance of trying to keep cheaters out of PTR. Personally, I also think it's just as important to try to deal with all the people who join programs and care nothing about the ads and who are solely interested in making money from clicking. And I also think it's important to try to attract people who will be good members. Who will be interested in the ads (at least they might be if the ads were the least bit interesting).

Now maybe that's a bit too optimistic for PTR. I dunno. But even if it doesn't work out that way, what does it hurt? What harm would be done by creating a simple, clear set of rules and expecting everybody, including owners, to follow them? With clear explanations of the consequences if they don't?

I know there's the argument that cheaters will find loopholes. But POs are still covered by the 'any type of activity deemed inappropriate' clause. I admit, in the past I've complained about that clause because I do think it has a lot of potential to be abused and overused. But I've listened to the arguments for keeping it in, and I accept that POs do need to protect their businesses.

But members need a bit of protection, too. Don't ya think?

Cheers,

Wil

[shadow]

And just like in the analogy I used before about the diamond shipping job, if an employee fails a drug test, they are not required to pay back any previous earnings, even if the employer suspects they had been using drugs on the job. Your arguments don't hold water, Shadow. You cannot assume someone was cheating the entire rest of the time just because they failed a test. The objective is to reduce cheaters so find a way to do that BEFORE they earn.


Frankly yours is what doesn't hold any water. Mine is back by usage of webmasters removing cheaters. For years now this has been done and a known pentality for cheating. Cheaters lose any rights to past earnings.
This is ptr. Not McDonalds, not GM, and certainly not a shipping job.

"Catch cheaters before they earn." ROFLMAO So easy to make grand statements that are totaly impossible for any ptr webmaster to do.

[shadow]

Shadow, you insist on us providing proof and whatnot. Just do a search here and at GPF for the words:

Unconscionability
Unconsionable
Matois
Jypsy
Contract Law

That should keep you occupied awhile. :)

Much of that doesn't apply. I read some or all and had a few laughs, Basic facts is laws relating to ptrs depends on different things: area, country, class of business and class of employees.
When you get a ruling from A federal agency concerning ptrs then I will read.

[cjay]

Think what you like, but I don't see what's unreasonable about expecting PTR owners to put it in their Terms if they expect members to be fluent in English. I'm not saying they shouldn't expect their members to be fluent in English. I just think if that's part of the deal, they should include it in their Terms.

Wil


Why would a program have to put it in their terms when it states right on the front of almost every program out there.

"Honest International Members Fluent in English are Welcome."

Now if they read this and can't understand that they must be fluent in English, they shouldn't signup.

[AnI4AnI]

Wil, you present good, sound logical arguments I assure you, I agree with most of your posts but to this end I have to say that there comes a time when people need to use their noggin. We cannot expect every place of business to spell out in minute detail exactly what is expected of us, in every situation, under all circumstances, unless of course you're mortgaging the Taj Mahal.

I would think a long drawn-out strict set of guidelines would give POs even more reasons to delete accounts, when they expect members to adhere